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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:08 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:12 am 
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At about the 11 minute mark in this clip, TC is talking about the transient nature of the FWAU and contrasts this with what he calls the "continuous" nature of the IUOC. Referring to the iUOC he says, "it pretty much is going to persist forever." The notion of forever is one that is inconceivable. In my mind "forever" is similar to "infinity." TC says infinity is not real.

So, if Time and Consciousness are complimentary and require each other, and if the LCS is not infinite in any respect, how can we say that it pretty much will persist forever?

Any perspective on what this means is appreciated,
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:32 pm 
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It helps to be able to live gracefully with uncertainty. The way I think of it is that ultimately the question of wether or not the LCS is infinite or finite makes no sense from the perspective that Consciousness is "All That Is". Everything that exists or could potentially exist, past, present and future exists within Consciousness. This includes time and ANYTHING else anyone could possibly think of. Whatever doesn't or hasn't existed just hasn't been invented or 'thought of' within consciousness yet.

Consciousness is literally all that is and all that will ever be as far as we conscious entities are concerned. No need to start thinking in circles and wondering if there could be something outside of what we fundamentally are. Even if there were we wouldnt likely be able to perceive of it anyway. But who knows; maybe we are just a bacterium in the intestine of an AUMosaurs.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:11 pm 
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Thanks VirtualBrain, I have been struggling with this for a while.

I can live gracefully (or not) with uncertainty once I have determined philosophically that there is no more knowing to be had. My interest in MBT comes from the perspective of science. And as I understand it, TC's initial target for MBT was the scientific community. And of course, many of the metaphors used and mechanisms described are scientific and computational.

VirtualBrain wrote:
Everything that exists or could potentially exist, past, present and future exists within Consciousness. This includes time
This was my perspective before studying MBT, i.e. that Time was a creation of Consciousness. (I wouldn't have said it quite that way but the meaning would be the same.) Time is contained within Consciousness.

But as I have come to understand MBT, it has been explained that Time and Consciousness are essentially co-dependent. You can't have Consciousness without time and vice versa. And MBT posits that the LCS is not infinite. Therefore I conclude that means it is not infinite in any respect. Neither it nor Time then, are infinite; not into the past, the present, or the future. There cannot be an infinite forever.

At the same time (no pun intended), it is difficult to understand Evolution as per MBT if inevitably there will be an end of Time, and Consciousness. I have pretty much defaulted to the notion, as per MBT, that Time is a technology invented by Consciousness for the VRs and that Consciousness (like the Void) is timeless. But that leaves me wondering how, "in the beginning" AUO could effect a change in state. Without time, nothing can change. Without change, there can be no Consciousness. Consciousness and Time must be characteristics of the same Thing?

I'm not sure why this is a sticking point for me.
Bob


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:47 pm 
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Bob,

Perhaps add to your consideration of time that Consciousness cannot be timeless. If Consciousness arises from a system of digital interaction of data within reality cells, that digital interaction must continue. It is not just a one time thing. The LCS as a system must be continuously interacting/changing as the data within a Cellular Automaton, not just a singular change of state. A rock changing from one state to another as in rolling down a slight 'hill' expresses very limited change, insufficient to establish any consciousness with only these two states. It is rather that by establishing a continuing change of state over the whole of the LCS as reality cells and data as IUOCs interconnected and United by the RWW that we establish time and it is only after Consciousness arises that there is or can be any awareness of it as time. We do not posit that there will be an end of time, only that it might occur.

There was a change of state going on for a long time within the reality cells of the LCS and the data within them before the LCS was United by the creation of IUOCs and their interconnection by the creation and action of the RWW. There was no way to know if the change of state of the LCS was regular or not because there was no consciousness to notice. Within the PMR VR, we cannot know if the LCS duration between state changes of the PMR VR (or within any other VR) are uniform or not. They are uniform by definition within each VR and can vary outside of the creating VR without being noticed within the VR. Within the consciousness of any avatar within a VR, time within that VR is constant as it is created to seem so. There can be variations of the state changes of the LCS cycles required to create a VR cycle but that will not be observable by avatars existing within the VR. I have written about this before and have experience of this in computer simulations I have done as engineering research. It is only within the 'higher' level of reality which creates a digital VR that variations of the higher level of the system, the LCS, that these variations can be noted.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:06 pm 
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I can live gracefully (or not) with uncertainty once I have determined philosophically that there is no more knowing to be had.
Personally, I'm not sure if I'd really want to get there if it were even possible. To know everything implies the end, death, no point in existing anymore. No more evolution, Your done. My intuition tells me that it's not likely we will ever be done but again, who knows?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:03 am 
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At the same time (no pun intended), it is difficult to understand Evolution as per MBT if inevitably there will be an end of Time, and Consciousness. I have pretty much defaulted to the notion, as per MBT, that Time is a technology invented by Consciousness for the VRs and that Consciousness (like the Void) is timeless. But that leaves me wondering how, "in the beginning" AUO could effect a change in state. Without time, nothing can change. Without change, there can be no Consciousness. Consciousness and Time must be characteristics of the same Thing?
In my perception, 'time' is one way that consciousness can experience or express itself. I know that MBT states that infinities are impossible but that may be a limitation of the current model. If you were to allow for the existence of infinity it seems to me that this parodox could be solved. Most religious/spiritual understandings describe "All That Is" as infinite, or at least as far as anyone has gone or heard of anyone going, or as far as anyone they have ever communicated with has heard of. MBT is rather unique in this regard, owing to its scientific/mathematical underpinnings. It is not necessarily true that the mathematics that define this reality are the same mathematics that describe all realities or the LCS as a whole. Trying to describe the superset from the limited perspective of the subset is very tricky if not impossible.

If then infinity is possible everyone starts worrying that free will is again at risk, that All is essentially static. I think that is a total misunderstanding of the concept of infinity, similar to the misunderstanding about what it means to be ALL THAT IS!!! It's really hard to wrap our minds around and it doesn't fit within current scientific parlance, so it's easy for most "rational" FWAUs to dismiss as superstitious new age &$@€£%. However, infinity means INFINITY!, and all that is means "ALL THAT IS"! So... To my mind there is no inconsistency, no paradox; other than that which you create for yourself.

I suggest the best way to come to terms with these ideas is to search within yourself. Meditate and ask for the answers. Do not intellectualize what you get. Give your right brain some excersize and allow whatever happens to happen. If you do this you may find yourself understanding statements like "Consciousness just Is" and "creation is infinite/infinite creation". But as always, who knows? Maybe we're all DOOMd!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:34 am 
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Ted wrote:
Perhaps add to your consideration of time that Consciousness cannot be timeless. If Consciousness arises from a system of digital interaction of data within reality cells, that digital interaction must continue. It is not just a one time thing. The LCS as a system must be continuously interacting/changing as the data within a Cellular Automaton, not just a singular change of state. A rock changing from one state to another as in rolling down a slight 'hill' expresses very limited change, insufficient to establish any consciousness with only these two states. It is rather that by establishing a continuing change of state over the whole of the LCS as reality cells and data as IUOCs interconnected and United by the RWW that we establish time and it is only after Consciousness arises that there is or can be any awareness of it as time. We do not posit that there will be an end of time, only that it might occur.
I have read and re-read, and re-read this paragraph and I am getting a better glimpse of that which I do not understand. I have found that this is true of me when contemplating other mysteries. There is a fog obscuring my vision but as I continue to look, the fog shifts and I get to see a bit more before it becomes obscured again. Since this contemplation of Time is similar, I suspect that perhaps Time represents a mystery that cannot be fully known from our perspective. Our knowledge is not “nothing,” we know something about Time, it’s just that our knowledge is incomplete. I continue to contemplate.

More specifically, if “The LCS as a system must be continuously interacting/changing as the data within a Cellular Automaton, not just a singular change of state” in order for Consciousness to arise AND Consciousness is necessary for Time to be perceived (and exist?) then how could it be that, as Ted wrote in the 2nd paragraph above that:
There was a change of state going on for a long time within the reality cells of the LCS and the data within them before the LCS was United by the creation of IUOCs and their interconnection by the creation and action of the RWW.
You see I am getting into a circle. Something was happening for a long time before there could be Time.

I do understand the following:
Within the PMR VR, we cannot know if the LCS duration between state changes of the PMR VR (or within any other VR) are uniform or not. They are uniform by definition within each VR and can vary outside of the creating VR without being noticed within the VR. Within the consciousness of any avatar within a VR, time within that VR is constant as it is created to seem so. There can be variations of the state changes of the LCS cycles required to create a VR cycle but that will not be observable by avatars existing within the VR. I have written about this before and have experience of this in computer simulations I have done as engineering research. It is only within the 'higher' level of reality which creates a digital VR that variations of the higher level of the system, the LCS, that these variations can be noted.
I was inarticulate when I wrote that “I can live gracefully (or not) with uncertainty once I have determined philosophically that there is no more knowing to be had.” I did not mean that I need to know EVERYTHING. I recognize there are things that cannot be known. I would like to know that which can be known and, of course, finding the line between what can be known and what cannot be known is a continuing quest. At least in part, science and philosophy are involved in this quest.

With regard to Infinity, VirtualBrain wrote:
Most religious/spiritual understandings describe "All That Is" as infinite, or at least as far as anyone has gone or heard of anyone going, or as far as anyone they have ever communicated with has heard of. MBT is rather unique in this regard, owing to its scientific/mathematical underpinnings. It is not necessarily true that the mathematics that define this reality are the same mathematics that describe all realities or the LCS as a whole. Trying to describe the superset from the limited perspective of the subset is very tricky if not impossible.
Yes, it’s clear that TC explains that infinities are not real and that the LCS is real therefore it is not infinite. While I agree with what you say in this paragraph, my effort here is to understand MBT to the extent possible. So in this respect, in understanding MBT, I am stuck with the mathematics available to us in this reality. If this mathematics is inadequate or different than the mathematics that governs the LCS then I will have simply reached the limit of what it’s possible to know. I am not yet ready to conclude that I have reached that point. Continued study and contemplation is in order.

Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:12 am 
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Bob,

In your first two quotations above, I think that you are reversing the ideas somehow. Consciousness did no spring from the Void but rather developed from the Void. First there was the Void which is described/perceived now as timeless and unchanging. Somehow, for some reason it becomes activated and suddenly it is observable that there are reality cells within the Void and that they have suddenly become activated as containing data randomly scattered in the reality cells and that this data starts to interact according to some rule set. How long the Void exists before it became activated is unknowable as time did not exist then. The Void has been observed to exist as long as there have been mystics in PMR but it existed for a vastly longer time before PMR or any other VR existed.

After the Void becomes activated, there is a vast and unknown period of time as we now know it during which the Void developed with no consciousness around to observe it. Eventually the stage of development occurred where the activated Void became united by an instance of self organization and emergent complexity by which a patter developed and automatically spread throughout the activated Void as reality cells and contained data. That is what I called proto IUOCs interconnected by the RWW developed. Until this 'time', all communication within the LCS as a Cellular Automaton was of necessity 'local'. That is that data could only travel locally from cell to cell until it collided with data in other cells and 'self destructed' in the collision. There is all this time the interaction of reality cells and data but only now is this to the state where Consciousness can arise. Compare this to the ancient Indian concept of Indra's Net where jewels of consciousness reflect each other. This is the stage that Tom refers to as AUO within which The One Consciousness developed by the interaction (passing of messages between) of the new IUOCs over the RWW (or the Jewels of Consciousness reflecting each other).

It is only as Consciousness finally arises that there is awareness, including of time. Yes, there were state changes. Yes, there was what Tom refers to as dim awareness. But Consciousness and passage of time and awareness of that time passage go together by any rational interpretation.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:26 pm 
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Thanks Ted, there is much to consider in your most recent post above. I have reproduced it here and embedded my comments and further questions:

Ted: In your first two quotations above, I think that you are reversing the ideas somehow. Consciousness did no spring from the Void but rather developed from the Void. ---Bob: I am sure that I do not appreciate the distinction you are making between springing and developing. As I understand MBT, whether springing or not, the Void is the ultimate precursor of Consciousness.

Ted: First there was the Void which is described/perceived now as timeless and unchanging. Bob: Yes, timeless, without time, outside of time, there was no time, time did not exist, etc.

Ted: Somehow, for some reason it becomes activated and suddenly it is observable that there are reality cells within the Void and that they have suddenly become activated as containing data randomly scattered in the reality cells and that this data starts to interact according to some rule set. Bob: Yes, per MBT, this is accomplished by some bootstrapping process that we are unable to describe.

Ted: How long the Void exists before it became activated is unknowable as time did not exist then. Bob: I would not say that the Void existed for long at all “before” it became activated as there was no time and there was no “before.” There can be no sense of how long, or short, or high, or low, before the Void became activated. It would be just as inaccurate to say that the Void existed for only a short time “before” it became activated. I think it better to just leave well enough said and describe the inactivated Void as “timeless.”

Ted: The Void has been observed to exist as long as there have been mystics in PMR but it existed for a vastly longer time before PMR or any other VR existed. Bob: Yes, it has existed for all time and for all “no-time.”

Ted: After the Void becomes activated, there is a vast and unknown period of time as we now know it during which the Void developed with no consciousness around to observe it. Bob: This is contrary to my previous understanding of MBT. I thought that according to MBT, time cannot exist without a Consciousness to experience it. Your comment here would seem to indicate that I am wrong about this, am I?

Ted: Eventually the stage of development occurred where the activated Void became united by an instance of self organization and emergent complexity by which a patter developed and automatically spread throughout the activated Void as reality cells and contained data. That is what I called proto IUOCs interconnected by the RWW developed. Bob: Yes, this is how I have understood your model.

Ted: Until this 'time', all communication within the LCS as a Cellular Automaton was of necessity 'local'. That is that data could only travel locally from cell to cell until it collided with data in other cells and 'self destructed' in the collision. There is all this time the interaction of reality cells and data but only now is this to the state where Consciousness can arise. Bob: Three comments here. First, I do admit that I do not have a good feel for “data collision.” I have trouble mapping that concept to the model of Cellular Automata which start with a set of rules and initial conditions and proceed from there (seemingly) without “collision.” Second, I can understand “locality” in a physical sense but I do not understand it in a non-physical sense. You must be trying to convey an idea by using the word “local” for which we have no better word. Is there another way to describe this notion of locality? And third, there was no time or “until-ness” and there was not any great amount of time, there was no time, “before” Consciousness arose (one again as I have until now understood MBT.)

Ted: Compare this to the ancient Indian concept of Indra's Net where jewels of consciousness reflect each other. This is the stage that Tom refers to as AUO within which The One Consciousness developed by the interaction (passing of messages between) of the new IUOCs over the RWW (or the Jewels of Consciousness reflecting each other). Bob: OK

Ted: It is only as Consciousness finally arises that there is awareness, including of time. Bob: Once again, the implication is that time has preceded Consciousness. I need to get this straight.

Ted: Yes, there were state changes. Yes, there was what Tom refers to as dim awareness. But Consciousness and passage of time and awareness of that time passage go together by any rational interpretation Bob: I do not really understand the distinction you draw, if that’s what you are doing, between the “passage of time” and “time.” If Consciousness and time “go together” by any rational interpretation, then neither one can precede the other. And this is how I have understood MBT all along. But your explanation seems to indicate that time does, in fact, precede Consciousness.

Bob: Additionally, perhaps part of my confusion lies in my reliance on the idea of space-time as described by Einstein (as far as I understand it.) Space-time is a function of our VR. Space-time is the best theory we have so far consistent with an observable constant speed for light which is also consistent with CAs. MBT purports to be able to derive our laws of physics better than any other theory so this idea of space-time seems to fit well.

BUT then we make a leap: Namely that space does not exist outside of a (PMR) VR but time does. Tilt??
Thanks again for the patience,

Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:43 pm 
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State changes exist within the LCS before The One Consciousness or VRs are created. What do you wish to call the period between states of the LCS if not time? Things did not occur all at the same time in a superposition. The LCS changes state, state by state by state like a Cellular Automaton. Do you wish to call it something else besides time? Go right ahead but I'm not sure if many will understand you. I am going with time as that is a common concept within PMR. I choose to explain state changes and then call it time and delta t's. This is what Tom calls it. Actually there is no time anywhere if you look at things that way in a digital reality. There is only state after state after state, first of the LCS and then of the NPMRs and then states of PMRs. Once you have VRs, you have IUOCs with avatars to perceive themselves as experiencing time within what ever VR they are perceiving themselves as existing in at a particular time (state in a sequence of states in the LCS).

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:12 pm 
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Thanks Ted,

It appears that I misunderstood (or mistakenly recollect) when TC stated that Time cannot exist without Consciousness.You have explained quite clearly that your view is that (what you call) time (and what I am happy to call it also) precedes Consciousness. This being the case, I can understand it as part of the assumption of Evolution for how could anything evolve (change) in the absence of time. I think it must be that simple. I have been mistaken about what I thought TC said. I hate when that happens.

And I am intrigued by your comment that actually there is no time anywhere if you look at it a certain way in a digital reality.

Bob


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:44 pm 
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The idea of time is based upon a continuum. After all you, at least the oldest among us, were used to clocks providing a continuous analogy to the passage of time as the hands rotated apparently continuously around the clock face. Actually even then, the clock hands moved in small increments of angle as the clock escapement allowed the gearing (escapement) to increment one tooth at a time . Before that, time was measured most accurately by a 'sun dial' as the shadow of the gnomon moved along which would have literally been continuous for practical purposes, except of course after sundown. However when you are dealing with a digital reality with state changes and represent each state as a point in digital time, there is realistically nothing in between each state. In a digital reality, time is not a continuum but rather simulated by incremental finite states with nothing as defined between those defined states other than our imaginations and the limitations of our perceptions make it a continuum again.

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:20 am 
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Yes Ted, I can remember those analog clocks well. I still prefer them. The notion of time has been an enigma to me since I can remember. But I am in good company as the nature of time has been a question pursued by philosophers and scientists since ancient days.

At this point in my quest, I have come to understand the digital nature of all VRs as well as the digital nature of AUM/AUO/LCS. It follows that time is necessarily digital and not a (analog) continuum. The evidence I see is overwhelming and so many paradoxes (like Zeno’s paradox) seem to be resolved with this digital understanding. Additionally, many scientists currently seem to be coming to understand the digital nature of both space and time, at least as far as our PMR VR is concerned.

Nevertheless, the question of “what is time” actually still haunts me. Simply to say that it is digital is less than satisfying. One can describe a ball as round, or blue, but that hardly conveys what a ball actually is. And neither does the idea suffice that you know it when you see it. We all “experience” the passage of time as you say, but this too seems an inadequate resolution. Why else would so many be working on this problem? Check out the numerous youtube clips by contemporary physicists on the topic.

Per TC’s MBT, the “time,” or “passage of time” (let’s use these 2 terms synonymously) is a technology invented by the LCS to advance each delta-t from one to the next. For anyone in a particular VR this incrementing seems “smooth” and there is no way to know what is happening “between” each incremental, next delta-t. TC has explained that there are many more NPMR delta-t’s between our PMR delta-t’s, and many more (capital “D”) Delta-t’s for the LCS in between NPMR delta-t’s. The obvious next question is what happens, or what is there between the Delta-t’s of the LCS. I understand your answer to this question to be: Nothing happens between Delta-t’s; there is nothing:
there is realistically nothing in between each state. In a digital reality, time is not a continuum but rather simulated by incremental finite states with nothing as defined between those defined states
Further, you say here that time is “simulated.” I think this is right. Our PMR VR time, just like our space, is simulated. It’s digital and it’s simulated. This would hold true for any VR, PMR or NPMR. But what about for the “non-simulated” reality frame of the LCS?

Now, since the Void is “timeless,” and AUO emanates from the Void, the larger reality in which it exists must be timeless. Now I quote from p239 of the Trilogy:
“Time is as easy for AUO to invent (evolve) as it is for us to keep time by tapping our foot. To create time our state flipping friend needs only to oscillate (repetitively change the state of) some individual or group of reality cells more or less regularly. These regularly oscillating reality cells become AUO’s clock – like a metronome, keep time for everything else. ….Time is a technology, a construct of a self-modifying evolving consciousness, an artifact of a system of energy improving its internal organization. When the potential energy of primordial consciousness evolves the ability to decrease its own entropy one infinitesimal smidgen, time is the byproduct of that internal change. “
So, if time is a creation, a construct, an invention (evolution) of AUO, then AUO must have existed first in order to construct time. TC is using all these different words (creation, construction, evolution, and invention) synonymously. Perhaps this is because none of these words by themselves is sufficient, perhaps not.

Let’s go with the notion as TC explains that time “evolved” as a byproduct. And, if you consider that evolution NEEDS time to work, just like any change NEEDS time in which to happen, then Time becomes part of the MBT Assumption of Evolution; part and parcel.

So here’s what I conclude, you tell me if I am off base. First, Evolution exists by assumption. The state changes that arose in AUO are a consequence of an assumption: Evolution. No state change can occur in the absence of Time; that’s what Time is, some change from one state to another. Perhaps you would state it slightly differently: a state change “defines” time. I never thought of both Time and state changes as synonymous but I see the point.

So we assume Time exists because the state change did happen. This is what it means (in part) to assume that Evolution exists. Once we make it an assumption, there is no need to “derive” Time. Furthermore, there is no “simulation” of Time either. The “time” of “space and time” or “space-time” is not the same “thing” as Time as we are discussing it here. Here we are assuming Time as part of Evolution. Next, little “t” time can be made regular for the VRs by the action of AUO/AUM as TC describes in the Trilogy. It can be simulated for the VRs just as “space” can be simulatied for our PMR VR.
So, I conclude that when I speak of time I can get confused if I don’t specifically identify “which” concept I am discussing: Big “T” Time which is an assumption or little “t” time which is a refinement and a technology invented by AUO. And so, the answer to the question “what is Time” is answered by and defined by MBT as “state change.” But from my perspective,, and MBT’s admission, this is an assumption. It really does not help me understand the underlying question: How is a state change possible in a reality which is (heretofore) timeless? Perhaps this question is nonsense but I think not, as so many have and are continuing to ponder it.

Bob


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:45 am 
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Bob,
So, if time is a creation, a construct, an invention (evolution) of AUO, then AUO must have existed first in order to construct time. TC is using all these different words (creation, construction, evolution, and invention) synonymously. Perhaps this is because none of these words by themselves is sufficient, perhaps not.
I think that you use of synonymously is not actually true. These terms are all different usages describing different aspects of a general concept or set of concepts.

I would say that evolution does not exist by assumption but it is rather the word, the term, invented to describe a phenomenon that has been observed. We then apply it for other similar, having similar natures, processes that we observe.

I cannot see value in much of the rest stated here if these changes are made. There is a digital change of state occurring at rates which cannot permit the observation of those individual changes of state as the VR being created by means of those changes of state cannot observe at the same level of the layer of the level at which the VR is being created. Changes of state just 'blur' together and are perceived as a continuum with duration rather than a summation of infinitesimal separate distinctions that are the individual finite delta ts.

Ted


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