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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:56 am 
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A few years back, I worked downtown. I would frequently take walks at lunchtime. The downtown area of the city I worked in was full of panhandlers. They would ask "Hey man, can you spare a few dollars so I can buy myself a sandwich?" or "I need to catch the bus home but I don't have enough money. Can you spare some change?" I got all sorts of creative stories - from the lady who needed money to buy bird seed for her best friend's pet bird because they were both had no money and the bird would soon die if not fed, to a veteran who had served in Iraq, but couldn't tell me anything about his experiences serving because recalling them was too traumatic for him.

Now, it would seem that the most loving thing to do would be to help others. A few dollars was not going to significantly affect my finances, but for someone truly needy it could make a big difference. Thus my entropy would be unchanged (or actually it would be lowered because I was learning to care about others), and the entropy of the person asking for money would be lowered. A net reduction in entropy in the world. However, my concern was, based on statistics I had read, that in many cases money I would give to such a person would not really be used to buy a sandwich or bus fare. It would be used to buy drugs or alcohol. Then I would become an "enabler" of entropy-raising activity. Ultimately, I decided to help the needy by giving money to a local food bank. It was less than a mile from where I did most of my walking. On several occasions where someone asked for money for a sandwich, I told them I supported the nearby food bank for just such a reason, and offered to walk over there with them. I never had any takers.

It seems like this is a general problem in determining what is the most loving action. And that the most loving action is not always giving the person what would appear to help them the most. I can think of many places it applies:
  • My friend is frequently short of money at the end of the pay period. I lend him money a few times, but then I realize that I am taking away his incentive to learn better money management.
  • A parent wants to be loving towards her adult child, so she tries to shield the child from PMR feedback. When the child doesn't get an "A" on a college paper, or are not offered the job after an interview, the parent intervenes and contacts the teacher or company being interviewed to complain.
  • The parent of a young child never lets the child experience scrapes and bruises in his play because she always jumps in to rescue the child if he starts to do something where he might get hurt.
  • Should an insurance company spend $100k to keep an elderly, terminal diagnosis cancer patient alive a few extra months?
  • Politics - should there be welfare? Should it continue indefinitely without any effort on the part of the recipient?
  • Politics - should there be free health care for the masses?
  • Politics - do you allow an infinite number of immigrants? What about the effect of these immigrants on the quality of life of those already in the country?
Let's not turn this into a political discussion of specific issues. I'm just bringing such issues up to show that the problem I faced deciding how to respond to a beggar is a generic problem of how to determine which action is the most loving. Is there a general way to determine the answer in cases such as these?

FunIUOC


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:32 am 
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What you are missing in all this is Intent. It doesn't matter whether you give money or not. It is the Intent behind the decision.

My mother had a saying, "Don't give it with cold hands." And she never did.

I often give people who ask me money - especially those old stinky guys that look like alcoholics. I don't care if they buy beer and cigarettes with it. If it gives them a bit of respite in the terrible life they are living - good! I give it with warm hands.

I often get hit up for money in the parking lot of Walmart. I let my gut lead me to whether or not I give them money. More often than not I do. And I don't care what they do with it. If their life is reduced to begging for money in a parking lot, then that is not a happy life.

And I have been ask for money many times at my house. I have raided emergency piggy banks a few times as I didn't have any cash myself.

When it isn't an intellectual exercise, but rather more about "other" then it is an easy decision.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:39 pm 
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you may be wrong in the end, it might not turn out that your good intent does lower entropy in the long term..

even the LCS has to deal with uncertainty..

the important thing is that your are trying... walking as ONE with your higher higher self... the lcs


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:04 pm 
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Thanks for the replies.

Although I realize that my motivation and intent may be the most important thing as far as lowering my own personal entropy, it seems to me that results do matter as well, and that therefore it is worth figuring out (intellectually if necessary) what is best. If I was a doctor looking to cure cancer, I would try to select experiments and tests that I felt were likely to actually lead to a cure versus just thinking that since my intent is good the results don't matter.

FunIUOC


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:54 pm 
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But we are not here to talk about any such speculative intellectualizations. Our concern here is to teach you the metaphysics that Tom Campbell discusses and studies, the nature of Reality and which we also study. That is very much about reducing your entropy and raising your Quality Of Consciousness (QOC) of your base being as an IUOC (Individuated Unit Of Consciousness).

We are not here to jump through intellectual hoops for your amusement or education.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:35 am 
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A bad outcome from a good Intent is better than a good outcome from a bad Intent. You are here to evolve the quality of your consciousness, not to try and figure out all the angles.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:53 pm 
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FunIOUC, you can only lower your own entropy. Thus lowering the entropy of the entire system. You cannot lower anyone else's entropy with your choices. No matter how great an environment you set up for others so that they may also lower their entropy efficiently, it's their choice to do it or not.

So that makes your question a lot more simple. "How do I know which choice reduces entropy in the long run" really is "How do I know I'm lowering my own entropy?" The answer to this is to "taste the pudding" as Tom says. Are you having negative emotions? Do you have ego? Do you get upset? Do you get angry? Are you choosing to feel negative emotions? These are signs that your choices are not really lowering your entropy. If you find you are rarely angry if ever, you are helpful to others, are making choices with intent focused on other, and are Love based, then it is likely that your choices are reducing entropy in the long run.

Remember, no matter what you do, you cannot lower anyone else's entropy. Give the man a dollar or not, it's not gonna lower or raise his entropy any. You have merely given him an opportunity to make a different choice. He now has a dollar to spend, will he choose to be selfish or selfless. Who knows?

You must shift your mindset towards extreme SELF entropy reduction. Then you can be sure that your choices are reducing system entropy in the long run.

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Are you sure it was Adam really typing this? If it helps you out, does that even matter?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:36 am 
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Hi Adam,

That's nice framework you've presented in your response. Simple and to the point.

Robert


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:13 am 
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Thanks Adam for the detailed reply.
Quote:
FunIOUC, you can only lower your own entropy. Thus lowering the entropy of the entire system. You cannot lower anyone else's entropy with your choices. No matter how great an environment you set up for others so that they may also lower their entropy efficiently, it's their choice to do it or not.
I do understand that the most important thing I can do is lower entropy. I guess I sometimes do forget this though. However, my degree is in engineering (Systems Engineering to be specific), so I am always looking to optimize things. If I feel a desire to help people, I want to be as helpful as possible for my effort.

For example, a month or so ago I was seeing all the news articles on the devastation from the hurricane in Texas. I felt sorry for the people, and I wanted to help. Sure enough, many ads began showing up in my browser from well-known charities requesting help. But I wanted to make sure that the maximum benefit would occur from my help. So I did my own research on what percentage of proceeds to various charities actually get to the recipients (vs. paying someone's salary or for advertising). I also felt that a charity close to the location of the disaster would be more effective in wisely spending contributions than one located elsewhere, since they are familiar with the local area and see the specific conditions at the moment. Ultimately, based on my research, I decided to give to a food bank located in southern Texas. Perhaps my contribution did say 30% more good that way than if I had given to a well-known national or international charity. As an engineer, I want to optimize results. Ultimately, I care about the people I am helping, and I definitely don't want to do something that ends up hurting (enabling dysfunctional behavior that ends us raising people's entropy). That is why I have been asking the questions about specific situations - so I can understand how to "calculate" how helpful a given action on my part will be and thus optimize my actions.


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The answer to this is to "taste the pudding" as Tom says. Are you having negative emotions? Do you have ego? Do you get upset? Do you get angry? Are you choosing to feel negative emotions? These are signs that your choices are not really lowering your entropy. If you find you are rarely angry if ever, you are helpful to others, are making choices with intent focused on other, and are Love based, then it is likely that your choices are reducing entropy in the long run.
I do try to pay attention to my own intuition. For example, I recently had dinner with a representative of a charity I have supported for many years. He asked me if I would commit to monthly pledges. I replied no, and he asked why. I explained that I try to follow my feelings about what is best, vs. calculating intellectually what I will do ahead of time. I gave him the example of the contribution I had recently made to help hurricane victims, because I felt was what I felt passionate about at the moment, and explained that if had planned contributions in advance I would not have been able to be as flexible in following my intuition and passion.

I also realize that my motivation is important. If I intellectually determine that I should give, but emotionally don't feel like giving and do it grudgingly, I am pretending to be someone I am not. I have taken this into consideration since long before I read MBT. When things are going well for me (which I usually find is when I am able to work at things I enjoy in my paid job, volunteer work, and hobbies), I find I experience a general absence of the negative emotions you mention. At those times, I tend to be a lot more generous with my giving than at times when things are not going well. Maybe it sounds like I'm trying to "bargain" with the system - to say "LCS, you make my life go well and I'll give x amount to charity!". But I don't see it that way. I see it as being authentic, expressing the actual quality of my inner being vs. what I have "calculated" I "should" be doing intellectually. 2016 was a very good year for me. Even though my income was not significantly different from what it was in 2015, I gave almost 3 times as much money away as I did in 2015 when my job and life sucked.
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You must shift your mindset towards extreme SELF entropy reduction. Then you can be sure that your choices are reducing system entropy in the long run.
I am an avid reader of self-help and personal growth books. My motivation? If I'm honest, probably because I think that improving myself makes my own life more pleasant. But I'm sure that getting my own life in order also benefits others, not only because I tend to be more "giving" when life is going well for me, but also because having an improved personality can make life more pleasant for others who I am around (at work, with personal friends and relatives, etc.).

FunIUOC


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:43 am 
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The primary and universal way to reduce your entropy in PMR is as Tom Campbell says:
1) Interact with PMR and other avatars. 2) Then pay attention to the feedback.

This is basically all that you need to know. Whether you interact based on some long and elaborate intellectualization before acting or act on the spur of the moment based on just feeling, the procedure is the same as given in the two steps above.

And this applies to everything, not just charitable contributions. How do you treat the secretary in the pool who types your reports. How do you treat your associates and subordinates. How do you treat the janitor who cleans the building you work in. How do you treat the neighbors, their kids or a stray dog who barks at you. How do you treat your wife. How do you treat women in general How do you treat the kids. How do you treat the homeless panhandler on the street. How do you treat the person of another ethnicity who is protesting against white supremacist neo Fascists or just old style Klan members. And the list is endless. One size (function) fits all (situations).

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:19 pm 
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It sounds like you live your life out of your intellect. Try and live at least some of your life without trying to think out all possibilities.

Maybe this post from Tom will be helpful.

Stop thinking, judging, expecting, analyzing, comparing, assessing, guessing, second guessing, assuming, etc. Stop thinking. Just be and experience existence without analysis. Simply experience the world you sense without attaching anything to it with your intellect. Be in the moment, observe without assessing or judging everything by how it affects and interacts with you. Do what seems intuitively right each moment -- accept and learn from the consequences -- experience/live reality moment by moment rather than limiting your reality to a little more than a reflection of fears, worries, needs and wants projected by your intellect.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6843&p=61149#p61149


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:39 am 
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Thanks for the reply, Ted.
Quote:
The primary and universal way to reduce your entropy in PMR is as Tom Campbell says:
1) Interact with PMR and other avatars. 2) Then pay attention to the feedback.

This is basically all that you need to know. Whether you interact based on some long and elaborate intellectualization before acting or act on the spur of the moment based on just feeling, the procedure is the same as given in the two steps above.
Ok, so if I'm unsure which way to interact or what to do, just make a choice one way or the other, then be attentive to feedback as to the results of that choice. Based on that feedback (which I assume should involve intuition as much or more so than trying to reason out intellectually whether the result was positive or negative), modify future choices accordingly.
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How do you treat the person of another ethnicity who is protesting against white supremacist neo Fascists or just old style Klan members.
And how I treat the white supremicist or neo Facist or Klan member as well. Sometimes it is hard to make a loving choice in an interaction like like that, even if I know what the loving choice should be. But I work on it.

FunIUOC


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:53 am 
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Stop thinking, judging, expecting, analyzing, comparing, assessing, guessing, second guessing, assuming, etc. Stop thinking. Just be and experience existence without analysis. Simply experience the world you sense without attaching anything to it with your intellect. Be in the moment, observe without assessing or judging everything by how it affects and interacts with you. Do what seems intuitively right each moment -- accept and learn from the consequences -- experience/live reality moment by moment rather than limiting your reality to a little more than a reflection of fears, worries, needs and wants projected by your intellect.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6843&p=61149#p61149
Thanks for the link, I will read through that thread.

Yes, I definitely have difficulty in stopping thinking. I guess on the path of a warrior. I realize that is true for most Westerners, but I think it is even more true for me. I consider my ability to "get to the bottom of things" intellectually to be one of my gifts. It is how I make my living. But I also realize the need to be flexible and not always rely on intellect, at least when it comes to decisions, because intellect can get the choice wrong sometimes. And intuition has access to other data (from the LCS) that the intellect does not consider.

I especially have difficulty not judging things. I remember back in the 90s I read a book by Deepak Chopra with a title something like "7 Spiritual Laws of Success". One of the exercises he had in that book was practicing non-judgement. He said something like "For a certain period of time every day, judge nothing that happens." He talked about doing this for an hour or two. I remember I had trouble doing that even for a few minutes. I would constantly catch myself evaluating every little, trivial thing that happened as I went through my day as being something "good" or "bad".

FunIUOC


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:57 am 
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You might find it useful to look into the personality types. I suspect that you are likely a Rational type, of the 4 major types, and very possibly an INTJ Mastermind sub type. This is not just a 'thing' of mine but rather that Tom Campbell introduced this to the board, describing himself as an INTP Rational Architect (of systems) and if you read about this type in the book that describes this most advanced of the personality studies, in my opinion, you will see a description of Tom Campbell, all the way to including his statement to be open minded but skeptical. I test as an INFJ Idealist Counselor and if you read the description of this type, you will see me, including my tendency to shamanism and mysticism and as the insider, I can tell you that these have been at the background of my life throughout.

Follow this link to read about the book which describes these personality types and includes a test to determine your type. https://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewt ... 76#p102046 Once you take the test and read about the type you test as in the book, if you don't recognize yourself and have an 'ah ha' moment, then you have over intellectualized the test and not arrived at your correct type. There is also a further link there to download a paper that I wrote that explains why there is reason to know that these personality types originate with our IUOC as our core being.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:58 pm 
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However, my degree is in engineering (Systems Engineering to be specific), so I am always looking to optimize things. If I feel a desire to help people, I want to be as helpful as possible for my effort.
It seems like one could query the LCS to generate stats that may be useful for the optimization you seek. You would need a metric to determine which of several options is "most helpful," for some definition of "helpful." Off hand, I don't know of a generalized, objective, useful metric for that (other than, perhaps, overall entropy reduction for a given, specified subset of the LCS for a given amount of time), but nor am I an engineer or sociologist, so my ability to come up with that metric is very limited.

For the sake of illustration, though, here's what I'm thinking about:

Say, you're considering three charities to donate to: Charity A, Charity B, and Charity C. You could query the LCS to give you the measure of probable "helpfulness" that would result from donating a set amount of money (or time, or other resource) to A vs. B vs. C, and then make a decision based on the stats you get.

I think your heart is in the right place: You want your efforts to be maximally helpful.

And your question is very good. It got me thinking. Thank you.


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