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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Love is a state of low entropy but the way It gets expressed varies to the avatar. A human, who evolved to be a social creature, experiences/expresses love in their human sense of emotionality and empathy. Yet it is not the same kind of love we experience post avatar death. And this world is rather cruel wherein the wild, there is overwhelming and collective murder of other animals and constant procreation into lives where every second is a struggle for the organism. So this human sense of love is also not "God's" sense of love based on the way they choose to run this simulated world.

My question is, how does this love get expressed in other animals who are not typically social creatures and are programmed for their own survival?
What does love look like in us when we are not our human avatar self? And how does that love translate to the god and the way they choose to make us suffer in this world?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:07 pm 
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I suggest you check out this from the wiki. It may clear up some things.

https://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php?title=Love
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My question is, how does this love get expressed in other animals who are not typically social creatures and are programmed for their own survival?
What does love look like in us when we are not our human avatar self? And how does that love translate to the god and the way they choose to make us suffer in this world?
Instinct aside, animals may express love in their own unique ways. Dogs for instance have been known to defend their human companions and each other against attacking humans or other animals. This could be an act of love.

Love is about other. God(LCS) doesn’t make us suffer, we make us suffer, by acting out of ego and/or fear and often out of ignorance.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:51 pm 
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The wiki seems more to be talking about love as it is applicable in a human context. Dogs may defend human companions, but rarely without the human companion first securing the food, safety, or well-being of the animal, so it can be largely a evolutionary mechanism of the dog for that symbiotic relationship since they themselves have evolved as social creatures. But they are just one example. Empathy and that emotionality we are familiar with don't get expressed the same way across all living conscious things. I wonder what it looks like in other organisms that have evolved differently and why it is that way.
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God(LCS) doesn’t make us suffer, we make us suffer, by acting out of ego and/or fear and often out of ignorance
One can say we made the choice to incarnate although our understanding of "choice" is a bit blurred when we are talking about us before incarnating as an avatar.
However, this VR has built itself from the ground up and this is the way things have evolved and been programmed to evolve.

The struggle of all life isn't "ego", the world is a rough place, animals eat other animals, things starve to death, constant fighting for survival and procreation. 150-200 species of animals go extinct every day. That is first where we find ourselves, before the ego talk.

Tom said before in a fireside chat the the world almost exclusively NPCs for millions of years of evolutions until it started taking on conscious players.

So clearly in this world, God's sense of love and reality is different from ours. After all, this VR or God is very very low entropy and that love is about others right? So i see it as simple deduction.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Stuff happens and we deal with it. We’re here to learn to interact profitability with each other. I think the main difference between humans and animals is that we have a much larger decision space, while animals are acting more out of instinct.

AUM(God) has a larger picture view so yes it would likely have a different sense of things but even AUM is still evolving and is not perfect yet(and never will be).

I suggest reading the book “journey of souls” it is about some of the things that go on between lives and it is mainly about preparing for the next experience packet and learning lessons from the last one. Tom has said that the book provides a reasonable outline of the processes and interactions in that little part of reality. It might give you some insights into loving interaction in the non physical.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:07 pm 
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I don't think you understand what I mean but I appreciate the effort.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:21 pm 
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Last edited by BlankMind on Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:30 pm 
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Can you elaborate? It is my understanding that all consciousness has free will, also while focused in the non-physical.
Free will means decisions within the reference frame of the consciousness and the decisions it recognizes as possible. If the LCS wants consciousness to inhabit VRs, the units of consciousness will inhabit the VRs, regardless of free will. The LCS would create the entire incentive for them to incarnate in VRs while we would tote "free-will". So my point was that it seemed we were attributing a human sense of choice and incentive here when it is hard to know such things when units of consciousness are not humans with our sense of rationale and emotionality. So what is incentive and choice to them? Something different than our sense of it yet it was being used with human connotations to imply something different in the above context.

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TobyH,

Love is a singular thing while relationship requires two or more -- they are two different things that may or may not be entangled in each other.

Love is something you give -- without conditions -- without expectations -- without requirements.
This seems like it's only applicable to humans. By this logic, almost all animals are very high entropy because they are always acting in their own self-interests for survival and they impede on other animal's free will by killing them(prey). So an animal that has a "love-based" intent would not eat other animals? This is not logical, they have no incentive to help other life forms other than their own off-spring but even that varies towards animals that eat their young. So what are they really accomplishing here and evolving towards? Even our human sense of empathy is an evolved mechanism for survival.
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But that same consciousness can always express positive love-based intent or negative fear-based intent.


I would very very much like to hear some examples of how a worm expresses love-based intent vs a negative fear-based intent.
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While love may be expressed in different ways, it always comes from the same source:
- Caring about reality to the extent that your highest desire is to support the well-being of all that is
Well what is "caring"? Your highest desire? These are appeals to human emotionality and rewards and incentives. I don't think you guys are looking at it the way I am.
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AUM did not decide for our reality to start out rough.
How do you know? Is what is rough for us what is "rough" for the AUM? Actually, I would guess god did a lot of pre-programming and preplanning, especially if you admit it was "OPTIMIZED" in a certain way. Not only does god have immense computational ability to look eons into the probable future but they have INFLUENCE over every avatar. Even guides are a tool for it.
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is still in its early and rough stages of evolution - although life is a lot better today than 100,000 years ago. Or even 100 years ago.
What is "better today" can only be spoken of humans and even then SOME humans, not the ones living in poverty, starvation and crime daily. and whether you consider having our basic needs catered to does not necessarily exclude suffering in another avenues. SO back to my original question. What does love look like post avatar death, or how is it expressed in other animals or in our relation to God? To the AUM, it probably does not share our human emotionality.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:53 pm 
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Last edited by BlankMind on Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:41 am 
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- SO back to my original question. What does love look like post avatar death, or how is it expressed in other animals or in our relation to God? To the AUM, it probably does not share our human emotionality.
The MBT Wiki on Love is pretty comprehensive, if you have not read it yet.

In other words, the thread seems to me to be an ego-generated query, and not a Being level query.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:50 am 
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There are billions if not trillions of IUOCs, so there's a high chance that someone will be happy to say yes to the opportunity.
There's a lot more than trillions of IUOCs but you are not even trying to understand what I am talking about. Saying there's a "high-chance" someone would be happy to incarnate because there are so many units of consciousness shows nothing in relation to what I said. An IUOC's happiness is not human happiness and the choices they make are relative to the information stream they are given.

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Actually there would be a great downside to the LCS if it tricked unwilling IUOCs into participating:
No one is talking about IOUC's being tricked. My point wasn't that we were separate to the LCS. I encourage you to re-read.
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The worm doesn't have an intent. The worm is a biological vehicle - a constraint on a larger consciousness that is able to express love and fear.
You literally said a worm can "always express positive love-based intent or negative fear-based intent. *The intent will result in the worm making different choices".

Now you say the worm doesn't have an intent. Okay, it is really tedious dealing the passive-aggressive posts here from people who are repeating Tom's phrases like a broken record without actually understanding what they are saying or what I am saying.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:53 am 
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The MBT Wiki on Love is pretty comprehensive, if you have not read it yet.

In other words, the thread seems to me to be an ego-generated query, and not a Being level query.

RBM, maybe examine your own intent for making this passive-aggressive and irrelevant post. Or you could be productive and address the points I made. Otherwise, I see no reason to post that.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:08 pm 
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If you feel that you are not being understood and your questions are not being sufficiently answered here, you can try asking Tom to address your questions through the fireside chat forum. Located here:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=9137&start=780


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:18 pm 
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The MBT Wiki on Love is pretty comprehensive, if you have not read it yet.

In other words, the thread seems to me to be an ego-generated query, and not a Being level query.

RBM, maybe examine your own intent for making this passive-aggressive and irrelevant post. Or you could be productive and address the points I made. Otherwise, I see no reason to post that.
Ego-generated posts are frequent here.

I could be wrong, and if I am it would be a useful learning opportunity, twofold. One in the sense of understanding MBT, and the other in understanding the purpose of the thread.

Given your thread, I'm not surprised you see no reason for my post.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:34 pm 
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There's a lot to unpack here. First we must start with a definition of Love. Tom's definition is: 11. Love, the opposite of fear, is about other – it is creatively expressed as compassion toward, and caring about, other – it expresses itself in terms of service and value to others. Love is awareness expressing an intention to be caring, helpful, and useful to others. To be more precise, compassion and caring, service and value, being helpful and useful to others are the results of awareness acting on a love based intent which is also a fearless intent. Love is the fundamental nature of a low entropy Consciousness. Love is given away at the being level while need is negotiated at the intellectual level. When you eliminate a “normal” being’s high entropy fear, his ego and beliefs also drop away and what you have left is a very abnormal low entropy being of love. Thus love as used here extends much beyond the more normal English language concept expressed by the English word love and related most strongly to Eros. It rather includes most of the other aspects perhaps expressed in other languages and also including such concepts of compassion, caring, and empathy. Loving yourself is called Narcissism and is very dysfunctional. Not feeling negative about yourself is necessary and the first step to growing up and getting rid of your fears.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8713&hilit=definitions

This is not at all the definition we usually recognize in the little picture. Love in the little picture is all about how well another person satisfies our needs.
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Yet it is not the same kind of love we experience post avatar death.
When we stop getting this PMR data stream, and re-orient back to our IUOC, our main concern is entropy. The LCS's goal is lowering its entropy through its parts lowering its entropy. So all help and cooperation that could possibly promote that is provided.
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And this world is rather cruel wherein the wild, there is overwhelming and collective murder of other animals and constant procreation into lives where every second is a struggle for the organism. So this human sense of love is also not "God's" sense of love based on the way they choose to run this simulated world.
This PMR is a probable digital evolving virtual reality. It is the way it is because that is the way it evolved, and we are the way we are. Death is so feared in our culture and many of our views revolve around that fear. Switching reality frames is not such a big deal. The animal that is eaten re-orients and jumps back into the VR for another go-round. This is the way we all evolve.

Animals evolve within the decision space they have. There are many, many stories of animals exhibiting choices not usual for their species. The ewe who suckled an orphan lamb with her own. Her instincts were to reject any offspring that weren't her own to increase the chances of her own lamb's survival. But her CHOICE was to accept an orphan. There was a story a few years ago about terrorists who took over a town that had a zoo. They put a donkey in with a starving lion. The next morning they found the donkey and the lion shivering close together in a corner. The lion had a choice and made a different one than its instincts. You can see this with all animals that have enough decision space. An earthworm has very little decision space and so does almost everything, or everything, from instinct alone.
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One can say we made the choice to incarnate although our understanding of "choice" is a bit blurred when we are talking about us before incarnating as an avatar.
However, this VR has built itself from the ground up and this is the way things have evolved and been programmed to evolve.
Free will is an absolutely necessary component of consciousness. So you have a choice whether or not to incarnate at all. You have a choice where to incarnate and the circumstances. We are all volunteers here, none are drafted in any way.
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The struggle of all life isn't "ego", the world is a rough place, animals eat other animals, things starve to death, constant fighting for survival and procreation. 150-200 species of animals go extinct every day. That is first where we find ourselves, before the ego talk. Tom said before in a fireside chat the the world almost exclusively NPCs for millions of years of evolutions until it started taking on conscious players. So clearly in this world, God's sense of love and reality is different from ours. After all, this VR or God is very very low entropy and that love is about others right? So i see it as simple deduction
You need to take a bigger picture view of this. You chose a fast track VR that is full of intense interactions. This PMR evolved in a way that is necessary for beings to eat, and a number of those entities are carnivores. There are other VRs where entities don't eat at all. A lioness kills a zebra trying to defend her foal, and the avatar that was being a zebra jumps back into the game as a moose in Canada. What is so tragic about that? The lioness was able to feed her cubs.

I think this post by Ted about Love is one of the best.

One thing that you must keep in mind to understand 'love' is that there is more to it than the single 4 letter word in English implies in our normal cultural usage. If you look in an English thesaurus for synonyms you find words like: affection, attachment, devotedness, devotion, fondness, passion and we frequently add distinctions by linking love with another descriptive adjective. If you go back to ancient Greek, such a root source in our society and culture, you find the following list: philia (dispassionate virtuous love which includes loyalty to friends, family, and community, and requires virtue, equality, and familiarity - compare to filial love), eros (love in all of it's sexual flavors - compare to erotic love), agape (thought of as a more pure and idealized form of love, divorced from the physical but in modern times developing that meaning also - a concept of love often used in religious contexts - perhaps compare to pure love), storge (the affection of a parent for a child - parental love), and xenia (an almost ritualized friendship and caring for, formed between a host and his guest - perhaps caring love). This could be carried on into outer languages and cultures. You can pursue this on your own at the library or on the Internet and go on for quite some time. The English word love simply does not have simple equivalents within other languages and cultures and its biases simply produce difficulties in understanding this usage. The simplest way to approach a single better word is the ancient Greek agape, in my opinion.

Let me describe the context of love within which Tom, in my understanding, uses it and equates it with very low entropy. This context is that our existence within Consciousness Space where we exist as IUOCs and as such are integral parts of The One Consciousness as we communicate over the RWW and thus are The One Consciousness. Thus we in concert are and create and are the driving force or Mind behind Consciousness Space in all of its features and functionality. Simultaneously, we are time sharing our beings as IUOCs as virtual selves in order to participate independently within virtual realities such as NPMR and PMR. Tom has spoken of this as an alternate way to view our selves and The One as one integral fractal thing that is in fact every thing and the only thing that exists. When we as individual IUOCs reach the point at which we can comprehend this fractal existence as integral parts of The One Mind/Consciousness and simultaneously as Individuated Units Of Consciousness, engaged in the mutual expression of our existence, developing our individual selves through interaction and simultaneously The One into every more complete expressions of individuality and yet the expression of the power of this One Thing as ever more complete understanding of Itself, reduced entropy. This is the context of 'love' as it is used by Tom. Love of the Whole, this Union, for its constituent parts and of the constituent parts for each other and of this Union, in recognition of this Union, this integral and mutual relationship.

More here: http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewto ... ter#p14350
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Free will means decisions within the reference frame of the consciousness and the decisions it recognizes as possible. If the LCS wants consciousness to inhabit VRs, the units of consciousness will inhabit the VRs, regardless of free will.
You are anthropomorphizing the LCS which isn't useful. The LCS is a digital information system. It doesn't want, compel, make, coerce, or anything else IUOCs to do anything. Otherwise there wouldn't be free will. It is like saying your computer wants you to turn it on. Your computer may run better when it is used regularly, but it has no desire for you to do so.

What you see as a hard cruel world is in fact just a reality that evolved through probability. And it is a fast track reality filled with mostly average quality consciousness beings making free will choices. And there are also some high entropy beings adding to the chaos, and some low entropy beings trying to help. What happens to us are opportunities. While one mother whose child dies from a disease becomes a drug addict, another starts a foundation to help others. Both are free will choices born out of the same situation. One is ego based, and the other is from Love.

Does this help you understand? If not keep asking questions.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Ego-generated posts are frequent here.
Most of us posting here are average entropy consciousnesses. All serious questions should be welcome. We all have our own beliefs and fears. So lets give posters a break.


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