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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:45 am 
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Hi everybody. I’ve been following the meditation journal thread and find it really helpful the way the posters share their process and observations of how this plays into their day-to-day interactions and lives. I would like to start a thread in Ego & Fear where we could discuss how fear, ego & belief impact us in our day-to-day and share our observations, our successes and failures and thoughts on how best to overcome these challenges.

Would anyone on the forum be interested in taking part in this type of discussion?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Sure go ahead and start one up! This is the heart of what you should be doing to grow up! Finding your fear and ego, and getting rid of it. If you find negative emotions, this leads back to some fear. Have you noticed any of your own fears lately? How do you plan to deal with them?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:10 pm 
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I try every day to stay focused on making life better both for others and myself. All negativity, difficulty and distractions are just challenges that get solved by staying focused and moving on. The LCS has proven to me, over and over, that there is always a solution, even when I can't imagine it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:05 pm 
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I’ve think I’ve been doing okay in as far as beginning to identify which/what/where some of the fears initiated but they’ve kind of grown into a whole different type of beast from their ‘baby’ selves. Am also beginning to see that the only way to turn this dysfunction around is by a choice by choice basis and that’s going to be the hard part. It sounds as if that’s what you’re implementing BlankMind and I don’t know how easy or difficult you find it.

Belief I’m thinking is possibly even more difficult to identify than the fears.

Then there’s the ego. I’m really not sure what’s the best way to go with that one. I know I’m sick to death with it and the thought of having to listen to self-referential twaddle for the rest of my life is horrible. I can see how irrelevant and wasteful it is but that’s not the same as effectively dealing with it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Some assorted thoughts.

Fear can further be defined - as misplaced risk - and that can further be divided into
1. Incorrectly valueing outcomes
2. Incorrectly assigning likelyness of outcomes.

If we value certain outcomes and assign likelyness correctly we will have well placed risk and move forward best as possible.

If we mess up that process we don't get to where we should be.

So finding fear intellectually would be to introspect outcomes and risk.
Or finding fear empirically would be to notice when you feel something is important such as by body ques.

Overcoming a fear would be to actually reassign risk and move forward based on it and let that develop its affects in the body and being. Imagine jumping off a cliff into water. Properly assigned risk could mean you do or don't jump depending on situation and person. But let's say properly assigned risk means you should jump and you do jump based on that. You slowly are training your system to operate best it can under cliff jumping situations.

Now let's say we misplace risk and don't jump. If we articulate the reasons and justification for the misplaced risk that would be belief. It's negative effects are
1. Harder to properly assign risk.
2. Reasons are claims on reality. That affects how likely other outcomes of other situations are. So you screw up risk in cascading manor.

What we fear usually happens becuase we claim the outcome and all outcomes that lead there to be highly likely. And it spirals out of control becuase opportunity exists everywhere to get to anywhere. Kind of like if you look for an excuse you will find it. Similarly if you fear getting fired from job you become aware endless opportunity for that to happen.

So grief opens all doors that lead to grief. But the reverse is true also.

A new phrase I have been telling myself is -

All you have is all you need to get where you should go.

This sound forgettable but is says a lot to me.

I recently started a new job and I was supposed to work 5 min away from home. But they started me out in an office far away. So I basically waited until they move me to close office to begin working on my goals. But lots of time passed and I don't get moved back. I squandered opportunity. And I complained mentally about the new job sucks. And I kinda spiraled down.

Basically I claimed I don't have what I need to move forward. I started with the goals and then back solved the pathway. Then wait around for it to open up. This is wrong method I think.

Best to access what I had under the pretense "all I have is all I need to go where I should be". Once I itemize all opportunity available then set goal that is most fullfilling and move toward it. If something drastic uncontrollable changes things. Just re-itemize and look for opportunity.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:49 pm 
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nessie,
The most tricky negative beliefs are the ones we think are "reality".
Because we are (relatively) advanced creatures, our negative beliefs can also become advanced self-protecting and self-perpetuating belief 'systems'.

- they’ve kind of grown into a whole different type of beast from their ‘baby’ selves. Am also beginning to see that the only way to turn this dysfunction around is by a choice by choice basis and that’s going to be the hard part.
- Belief I’m thinking is possibly even more difficult to identify than the fears.
- Then there’s the ego. ...


Read those thoughts again. What are they?


Last edited by BlankMind on Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Negative beliefs want to trick us into a difficult fight, because they feed on that fear-fueled struggle. It's a fight you can't win.
Really all it takes is:

1. Notice them
2. Let them go (no fighting) :)
--- give your valuable energy to better things

Sounds easy, and it can be, but it becomes hard when we don't choose to move on. Luckily it's a thing that gets easier and easier.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:03 am 
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Thanks for the responses ahash31,Delak and BlankMind. Had a roughish night last night and not functioning too well today. Will get back when I’ve got a bit of brain function going.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:29 am 
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Another important concept is to be ready and willing to change who you are fundamentally. You have to change in order to evolve, many times we are resistant to changing ourselves. Develop an attitude of being ready and willing to change !!

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:46 am 
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5 years ago, just after I had found MBT, I woke up in the middle of the night to the sound of the word "FOCUS". It took me years to find out how important that is.
You're always feeding something with your energy. Choose carefully.
Belief systems set up traps to make you engaged with them. They feed on the engagement. To stop feeding them takes courage because they trap you with fear.
Say no to negativity, do not debate or fight with it. Wish it the best, and move away from it. That removes its source of energy (you).


Last edited by BlankMind on Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:07 pm 
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I think one of the most important things to realize in the ever-long journey towards growth is the dynamic relationship between fear and love within humans. There is an intertwined dualism between the two, in that, when someone is filled with love, there is an absence of fear and accompanying emotions and vice-versa, when someone is filled with fear, there is an absence of love and positive emotion. They are not like two separate things to be experienced but conjoined like a balance scale that make up our state of being. I first realized this in my own meditation practice where the objective was to constantly exert an effort to feel love towards everything for a few hours. Eventually, I got the sensation that, "my heart", was filled to the brim with positivity and because of that, there was no room for negative emotions to enter. What followed was a change in my attitude of life and my behavior went from aversion to fear to engagement with it due to excitement and confidence. The voice in your head telling you that you can't do this, or this will go bad was no longer there as thoughts are only a reflection of your mood, fear, or inner being. So I think Tom's dualistic metaphor of fear and love is apt because I completely felt a duality in two different states and the spectrum of emotion they existed in.

So in this sense, I don't think you necessarily have to tackle fears on an individual level. Growth can happen holistically and the rest can follow. However, tackling fears individually leads to the same thing anyway as it is a tool for growth.

In putting MBT teachings into practical application, I find three important aspects to focus on:

Awareness: Awareness is they key to change and development. Unlike animals, we are not bound to animalistic drives and impulses because we have a higher level of cognition that allows for awareness. We are not doomed to repeat behaviors because our awareness allows us to interpret what presupposes our behavior or action and then we can reject it or choose action in the aim of a new intent. Because of our level of awareness, we can almost entirely reject our animalistic hard-wiring which represents a great deal of potentiality in evolution through our ability to choose our intent and our action and consequently our development path. However, if we are not exercising awareness, we are living as animals do and are bound to repeat behavior and get stuck. There must always be a conscious effort to practice awareness in our daily life because it expands our set of options when reacting to situations and allows us to program ourselves. Growth is always an upstream battle and if one is not evolving, they are devolving.

"Opening the heart": What I mean by this metaphor is to bring emergence to the being-level state in a certain kind of way. Many people on this forum and in daily life, including me, live in a very left-brained thought processed way of experiencing reality. It is not enough to rationalize Tom's teachings, love does not care about rationalization. As Tom has said, all growth happens at the being-level. When we are in the left-brained thought process, we are essentially putting up an intellectual wall towards everything that filters what gets interpreted into you and what gets expressed outwardly in relation. We have to integrate being level interaction with the world for true growth. In order to do this, love must be practiced in it's expressive form. We have to exercise emotions such as love, compassion, empathy etc as it creates a relationship with all things and the player learns not to make it about themselves. This is not as simple as it seems because there are levels to it. Ask an average person to practice love and their love will be average and confined. I believe these emotions need to be activated and channels need to be opened. In this day and age particularly, people live their lives with these emotions or expressions dormant. Emotional release and emotional connection are very important as they are reflections of the being level state and being level interactions. Many people, for example, practice ecstatic poetry from the likes of Rumi and find a new appreciation for life and a new propensity for love they did not previously have.


Keeping Perspective: This one goes with the other two. Fear, ego, and belief all limit our perspective and consequently our understanding. We get so locked into habitual patterns of daily life that we start to see life only in one light and get stuck in particular modes of thought. If you've ever engaged in a petty, hostile interaction or argument with someone at work where you've spent the day dwelling on it and had it ruin your mood, and then had a incident where your loved on ended up in an accident or hospitalized the same day, you might then become completely disinterested or forgiving towards that person at work. Why is that? Because the incident with a loved one gave perspective on life and dissolved the egoic mode you were previously operating with. You realize the argument is really not as important as you made it out to be, your loved one's well-being is. In order to engage with that hostile attitude and argument again, you would once again have to limit your perspective. In that way, expanding and keeping perspective is liberation from the ego. When you get offended from someone, it is your ego, your individual and constructed sense of identity that is challenged which invokes a hostile, adrenal response. In an expanded perspective of what life is, you see the situation for what it is beyond yourself.

Hope that helps.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Quote:
So in this sense, I don't think you necessarily have to tackle fears on an individual level. Growth can happen holistically and the rest can follow. However, tackling fears individually leads to the same thing anyway as it is a tool for growth.
Rings true in my experience.

Your post about the fear/love duality reminded me of something. Over a span of 5 years I have experienced (only a few times during meditation or sleep) a high energy reality system.
Currently I can only last a few seconds in the reality before I panic and wake up. The energy is overwhelming because I've never felt anything else near its power. And in those few seconds it feels like I become aware of so much information/knowledge that my consciousness might tear apart and explode like a hot balloon.
The energy doesn't feel positive or good, but it doesn't feel negative or bad. It feels like a third thing, a holistic combination of fear, love and all in between simultaneously. "Netural" would be a good word if it was not used so often as a description for something plain and basic.
The reality might be a collective consciousness of some sort.

A while ago I found this post by Tom which might be about it:

JoshM: A description I once read of this place he labeled "Focus 4" was that it felt like you were losing your mind.
Tom: That feeling is only temporary -- until one gets oriented and accustomed to that mode of awareness and existence -- then it becomes much like any other reality frame -- only different.

- viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2589&p=3055&hilit=temporary#p3055


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:53 am 
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Sorry for dropping off the radar for several days after asking for this discussion. I had a couple of skew-wiff days but got it together to get to Manchester to the MBT event which was great. We’ve had some severe weather here so travel was gruelling none more so than for Tom & co who I believe put in 20 plus hour journeys and still managed to be incredibly generous throughout.

Ahash
Finding your fear and ego, and getting rid of it. If you find negative emotions, this leads back to some fear. Have you noticed any of your own fears lately? How do you plan to deal with them?

I live with fears 24/7. I think (believe?) the majority of the negative emotion is directed at myself. I’ve got a couple of conditions that don’t play well together and this impacts out harshly on my loved ones and ripple on out from there. I’ve been carrying this constraint for almost a quarter of my life now which feeds upon itself in terms of not trusting my ability to turn it around. I hate admitting that because I know how a positive intent works but this has been a wearing one. I’m not offering the constraint up as a ‘get out of jail free card’ because regardless of our constraints the work still needs done. I’ve also known folks who carry hefty constraints with courage and without letting fear diminish them. The health stuff isn’t my only fear, but it tends to amplify feelings of unworthiness, inadequacy, guilt etc. How do I plan to deal with it – I’ll keep getting back up every time I find myself back on my ass.

Another important concept is to be ready and willing to change who you are fundamentally. You have to change in order to evolve, many times we are resistant to changing ourselves. Develop an attitude of being ready and willing to change !!

I live with me, I have my good points and bits and pieces to offer but overall - you have no idea how much I want to get past the irrelevant stuff:)


BlankMind
5 years ago, just after I had found MBT, I woke up in the middle of the night to the sound of the word "FOCUS". It took me years to find out how important that is.
You're always feeding something with your energy. Choose carefully.
Belief systems set up traps to make you engaged with them. They feed on the engagement. To stop feeding them takes courage because they trap you with fear.
Say no to negativity, do not debate or fight with it. Wish it the best, and move away from it. That removes its source of energy (you)


I understand FOCUS and you’re right it plays a central role. Focus hasn’t been my forte for a good bit now and I get that this will sound like an excuse but I struggle to keep enough focus to stay upright and semi-lucid pmr. I devote an inordinate amount of energy to coping with the negative consequences of that. I’ve been experimenting for several months with trying to accept things as they are and to stop fighting the symptoms and that has helped at times but I find the line been between acceptance and submission a grey area.

I really don’t know if my subjective experience results from dealing with rule-set stuff or if I’m perpetually feeding a belief trap.

I liked your ‘say no to negativity….wish it the best….and move away’. I saw a show recently where a traditional Irish Traveller saying was about looking inwards to talk to your devils after which you shake hands with it and keep on walking.


The energy doesn't feel positive or good, but it doesn't feel negative or bad. It feels like a third thing, a holistic combination of fear, love and all in between simultaneously. "Netural" would be a good word if it was not used so often as a description for something plain and basic.
The reality might be a collective consciousness of some sort.

I don’t get the LCS as neutral (was that what you meant?). I get the IOUC number crunching/measurement sending functions as neutral which is something that human+ may have been referring to in an earlier thread. I guess that is the required IOUC function to keep all of the VR’s glitch free and the data-bases updated. Apart from the data bases I don’t think that 90% plus of that function is even relevant to us as FWAU’s. Out with those functions I get the LCS as primarily emotive but I could be superimposing my subjective take on that.

Delak
The metaphors you used work for me. I’ve been viewing the fears as immature/incorrect measurements which fractal out when unchecked and yes screw up risk in a cascading manor. I’m able to observe that process in motion but it’s like one part of me is doing the fear thing while another part is always telling me that I know better. The part that knows better doesn’t really allow for the excuses or justifications but it isn’t as pro-active as when I was younger. In some ways it seems to have taken a back seat while waiting for me to dig myself out of whatever hole:(

Re manifesting our fears, well that part is almost uncanny isn’t it.

Human+
I need to read your post again before I come back to you. Time for a nap:)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:34 am 
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Quote:
I don’t get the LCS as neutral (was that what you meant?)
If you think of the LCS in terms of All That Is, then the LCS should logically be a combination of everything positive and negative. If that balance is equal, then the LCS would not be dominantly positive or dominantly negative, but instead a third thing which is the result of both at once.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:31 pm 
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Human+

I think one of the most important things to realize in the ever-long journey towards growth is the dynamic relationship between fear and love within humans. There is an intertwined dualism between the two, in that, when someone is filled with love, there is an absence of fear and accompanying emotions and vice-versa, when someone is filled with fear, there is an absence of love and positive emotion. They are not like two separate things to be experienced but conjoined like a balance scale that make up our state of being. I first realized this in my own meditation practice where the objective was to constantly exert an effort to feel love towards everything for a few hours. Eventually, I got the sensation that, "my heart", was filled to the brim with positivity and because of that, there was no room for negative emotions to enter. What followed was a change in my attitude of life and my behavior went from aversion to fear to engagement with it due to excitement and confidence. The voice in your head telling you that you can't do this, or this will go bad was no longer there as thoughts are only a reflection of your mood, fear, or inner being. So I think Tom's dualistic metaphor of fear and love is apt because I completely felt a duality in two different states and the spectrum of emotion they existed in.

I think I understand the love/fear duality as a double vector. I know Tom says we can get rid of fear but I’m still at the stage where I wonder if a larger awareness of love doesn’t also mean a larger awareness of fear/pain and it’s just that as we grow we learn how to handle it better. I’d be quite happy if anyone can call ‘strange loop’ on that one for me. For the moment I think that the two do co-exist but find it amazing that even while possibly being 98% fear based many pmr’ers succeed in creating and sharing the most beautiful things with the rest of us.

I do have a voice in my head that tells me what I can or cannot do but I really don’t if that one is ego talking or if it’s based on learned experience. My cognition dips to totally spaced multiple times a day from effectively sleep-walking to about as random as you want your bits to get. It’s temporary and I bounce back but it’s relentless. I also have an incorrigible voice that persists in thinking that I can bite off a lot more than I can chew despite all evidence to the contrary. I think that’s where the need for balance comes in.

I think re identifying/tackling the fears I’ve done the intellectual bit so now it’s down to courage/discipline in making steps in the right direction as best I can and see how that unfolds.

Awareness is they key to change and development. Unlike animals, we are not bound to animalistic drives and impulses because we have a higher level of cognition that allows for awareness. We are not doomed to repeat behaviors because our awareness allows us to interpret what presupposes our behavior or action and then we can reject it or choose action in the aim of a new intent. Because of our level of awareness, we can almost entirely reject our animalistic hard-wiring which represents a great deal of potentiality in evolution through our ability to choose our intent and our action and consequently our development path. However, if we are not exercising awareness, we are living as animals do and are bound to repeat behavior and get stuck. There must always be a conscious effort to practice awareness in our daily life because it expands our set of options when reacting to situations and allows us to program ourselves. Growth is always an upstream battle and if one is not evolving, they are devolving.

I’m cool with the animalistic part I think that’s at our being level and part of the experience. I think animals, particularly the larger mammals are not too dissimilar to us in their emotional lives and they obviously grow and learn but don’t have the yammering internal chatter. I find their experience of ‘just being’ a bit of a relief compared to many human FWAU’s. Re the not being bound to repeat the same mistakes – seriously, am I the only one that takes many many many repetitions for the lessons to embed?

I was going to ask whether a conscious effort to practice awareness in our daily life isn’t more of an intellectual exercise but I see that you’ve covered this. I’m not a left brainer. Pre health constraint I had a more effective left/right process but nowadays I have to largely wing it on the terminally right.

I don’t get the terminally left brainers as being emotionally dormant. I’m not great with the surface stuff so I primarily get folks as being a vastness of emotion. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered anybody who wasn’t. I definitely agree that we need to learn to express more love compassion and empathy but I think most people are aware of these aspects in themselves whether they act upon it or not so that’s hopeful.

Practice ecstatic poetry from the likes of Rumi and find a new appreciation for life and a new propensity for love they did not previously have. Out with giving and receiving unconditional love with the folks we interact with I find author’s my easiest ‘in’ for rolling around in wonderfulness. I’m not sure how that works because I have (mostly dead) authors who I can read about in Wikipedia and some of whom could be considered tyrants or to have committed heinous crimes but who have succeeded in expressing breathtaking depths of empathy and compassion in their art. When I interact with them maybe in my imagination maybe in a data base it’s only the positive stuff that’s there.

Keeping Pespective I agree with everything you say here and I’m beginning to understand that it’s always my choice in terms of how I perceive/respond. The ego adrenal response is a tricky one for me to distinguish. Part of my constraint involves frequent floodings of adrenaline with a side dish of anxiety. I’ve observed that if this biological rule-set response carries on for an extended period my thoughts will try to attach some meaning to the anxiety where there isn’t really any.

BlankMind

If you think of the LCS in terms of All That Is, then the LCS should logically be a combination of everything positive and negative. If that balance is equal, then the LCS would not be dominantly positive or dominantly negative, but instead a third thing which is the result of both at once.

I asked Tom about this at the event but you’ve worded it better! My question was around how to view the LCS as a loving system when pmr’s like ours are considered average in terms of growth. I couldn’t see the connection between IOUC’s at our level playing a hard traction game being somehow translated into a loving caring system. I think his answer boiled down to the LCS having been at this for a very long time but you can hear his reply when edited.

I’m not sure about it for myself yet. I can look around at the planet and see how beautifully it evolved and provides sustainable for us, all of the animals, wonky dogs, daft horses, so much of it is breathtaking. Then there’s our interactions and our capacity for so much. I get that we co-create but I assume that this VR is provided for us and that would suggest to me that the LCS is predominately positive. Also if you think of the ten minutes a day (that’s my time slot) that you find yourself facing outword, why would that feel so good if it wasn’t the direction that is encouraged? That also suggests a loving system to me.

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