The Case Against Reincarnation

Post Reply
sirchips
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 12:20 pm
Contact:

The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by sirchips »

The Case Against Reincarnation

I support Tom’s work because of my own personal experiences in the larger reality and the science behind MBT, however, I would like to call attention to an aspect of the theory that I have serious concerns about. Upon close examination, I have drawn the conclusion that reincarnation has some serious logical flaws and warrants careful reevaluation and heightened scrutiny. At the same time, I propose what I consider to be a more defensible alternative to reincarnation, as a model of what conscious beings experience after the expiration of their earthly body.

Instead of reincarnating back to earth in a different body with no memories, the weight of experiential evidence and logic suggests that conscious beings incarnate into other virtual realities with access to their past memories intact and with substantially similar bodies. As I explain below, incarnation to other VRs, as an iterative process, offers more efficient, more powerful, and more diverse opportunities for the continuing evolution of consciousness, and appears to be more compatible with the logical, efficient, and benevolent nature of the LCS.

In addition, this approach can be harmonized into MBT, and can be used to close out logical inconsistencies created by reincarnation. This would bolster MBT and result in a stronger theory. I invite everyone to review the points that I am raising, evaluate them, discuss them, share their opinions, ask questions about them, and analyze them. My hope is that if Tom and others can see the value in these points, MBT can open itself up to them and integrate them into the overall theory. I am encouraged by statements from Tom to the effect that he doesn’t expect that MBT has gotten everything correct and that he is open to reevaluating and revising it over time.

Also, Tom does not seem to be too far conceptually from at least acknowledging the possibility of what I discuss here, as can be seen from the following quote from April of 2009, “We, our individual identities are not lost -- they continue to be used as living history and may be reused in whole or in part in future VR projections -- whatever is most profitable to the evolution of the whole of us and to the evolution of the larger consciousness system.” viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3550&p=8375&hilit=n ... data#p8375

What I refer to as the “incarnation” model (in contradistinction to the “reincarnation” model), is meant as a very basic outline of the methodology employed by the LCS as the standard operating procedure for what we experience after the expiration of the earthly body, not as a thorough description of all “afterlife” processes. I am sure that the entire picture is far grander and more complex than any of us in this reality can fully discern. However, I don’t want to put forth anything other than the simplest and most necessary elements that can be reasonably extrapolated from experience and logic.

I had previously described the deficiencies in the reincarnation model in narrative form under the heading Incarnating Into Other VRs is More Efficient than Reincarnating Back Here. In order to garner additional feedback, I have reorganized the arguments here in The Case Against Reincarnation and summarized them in bullet point format for greater focus and clarity. Since the arguments are somewhat long, I have divided them into several subtopics, each of which can be reviewed individually. I may, separately, ask for comments one subtopic at a time to pinpoint certain aspects of the issues. I intend to edit some of the points I make as I review responses, for the sake of better comprehension, completeness, and strength. Everyone’s input in constructive furtherance of the discussion is welcome and appreciated.

I, therefore, ask that you review and consider the following:


The Mathematics Doesn’t Support Reincarnation

- The math doesn’t support reincarnation as an efficient growth-sustaining mechanism. It reveals enormous inefficiency. If you take an estimate of how many people have ever lived, say 108 billion people, and you multiply by an estimated average of 40 years lag time to achieve relative net positive growth (quality of consciousness) over where they left off when they last lived, you come up with a vast amount of wasted time: 108 billion people x 40 years to catch up = 4,320 000 000 000 (four trillion three hundred and twenty billion) years of additional unnecessary time before resumption of growth .
- Even if you assume an overabundance of efficiency in the reincarnation method of 100 to 1 versus incarnation, you still get 43 billion two hundred million aggregated human years of additional time needed to achieve relative net positive growth.
- Even if you use a shorter baseline for average time to achieve relative net positive growth, of 10 years or 5 years, while still assuming 100 to 1 greater efficiency of reincarnation, you still get 10 billion eight hundred million, and 5 billion four hundred million years, respectively of additional time before achieving relative net positive growth.
- The enormous additional amount of time needed to achieve relative net positive growth under a reincarnation methodology would seem to be a lot slower and far less efficient than maintaining other VRs in which conscious beings could continue to develop with a respawned avatar associated with the same memories and individuality as when it existed on earth.
- Each conscious being may log on as a similar character in a different VR after the character’s lifetime comes to an end, across multiple lifetimes. This ensures an iterative learning process with a vast array of different experiences for the conscious being to evolve its quality of consciousness. Although the characters, as opposed to the conscious being that plays them, are solely composed of data, they may change over time, perhaps in some cases unrecognizably so as a reflection of the logged-on consciousness which gradually changes holistically over different lifetimes.
- Earth can be considered a content-creation and content-exporter mechanism, in addition to a consciousness trainer. And to just store the unique memories and intellectual portion of our individuality in a database rather than allowing it to continue to develop undermines the purpose of content-creation, and greatly diminishes the number of diverse and unique individuals.
- Recycling of individuated units of consciousness (IUOCs) instead of putting them in other VRs greatly diminishes diversity within the ecosystem of consciousness. Consider that if you subtract the number of people on earth today from the number that have ever lived on earth you would get 100.2 billion intellectual and memory experience packets placed in database storage rather than allowed to continue informing their hosts in other VRs and allowing more new conscious beings to come to earth: 108 billion - 7.8 billion = 100.2 billion intellectual/memory experience packets just stored away in databases. That’s also 100.2 billion unique individual beings less than what we would otherwise have contributing to the evolution of the system.
- Incarnating into another VR avoids the many years of relearning everything all over again that comes with reincarnation. That’s why maintaining a contextual awareness is so important for continued development.


By Allowing Contact With Departed Loved Ones, the LCS is Signaling that the Opposite of Reincarnation is True

- If reincarnation were true, contact with departed loved ones would require the LCS to misrepresent the conscious continuity of the loved one in the unique and familiar form recognizable to the earth bound relative.
- If the LCS’ goal is to comfort those in mourning, it could provide insights into the transition to a reincarnated life, which would bring great joy to the bereaved. Seeing that the deceased has not been annihilated, but rather is actively involved in another undertaking would be of enormous comfort to the grieving. The fact that the LCS brings joy to the bereaved by allowing the deceased to be seen as continuing with the same unique individual identity rather than transitioning into a different one, speaks volumes.
- Reincarnation theory ignores such clues and hints from the LCS, as to how things really work.
- Not everyone who makes contact with deceased relatives is still in mourning or in need of comforting at the time the contact is made. This indicates that the LCS does not only seek to comfort but also wants to provide people with a “bigger picture.” It wouldn’t be a bigger picture, if the picture provided is wrong.
- In the transition reality, if the LCS’ goal is to put at ease someone transitioning to another life, it could just as effectively do this through generic characters which would not be associated with the continuity of relatives after death, or by the use of conscious beings who work in the transition reality.
- If it doesn’t matter to the LCS that a misrepresentation takes place, then why not also represent still living loved ones in the transition reality?
- Providing misinformation creates cognitive dissonance and confusion, thereby raising entropy which contradicts the LCS’s objectives.
- Providing misinformation is less loving and respectful of the individual consciousness than avoiding misinformation, therefore the LCS would avoid providing misinformation.
- Making contact with a deceased loved one, brings great joy to the living relative. Learning that it wasn’t truly the loved one would be deeply hurtful, and inspire mistrust toward the LCS. Both of which increase entropy, therefore, the LCS wouldn’t do it, if reincarnation were true.
- The LCS would prefer the lower entropy path of fostering a more accurate picture of reality because of its love for us, its interest in promoting trust, and the need to preserve its integrity.
- The fairly widespread nature of the phenomenon of contact with departed loved ones, compared to the dearth of visions/insights into the transition to a reincarnated being, raises the issue of what message the LCS seems to be actively trying to convey to us about the afterlife. Moreover, it raises the question of why the LCS would actively foster perceptions of continuity rather than reincarnation, if they weren’t true.
- The LCS is indeed benevolent which is why love is its prime objective. A corollary of love is truth. The LCS helps us to evolve but within certain parameters. One of those parameters is truth. Truth is inconsistent with “the ends justify the means.” Therefore, it would be contrary to the LCS’ nature to lead us to believe in the conscious continuity of an identity through a recognizable bodily form, if reincarnation were true.


Purported Memories of Past Lives Can Be Explained by the Accessing of Actualized Past Databases

- Purported memories of past lives can be explained by the ability of some people to tap into data streams or databases of past events corresponding to other people’s experiences. The people accessing these experiences then incorrectly assume that the memories are of past lives that they themselves have lived.
- Also, some newly created individuals whose quality of consciousness is copy and pasted from a previous individual may have enhanced accessibility to that individual’s memories, which could be incorrectly interpreted by the new individual as their own past life.


The Advantage of Memory Recall Highlights the Inefficiency of Reincarnation for Growth

- Retention of access by an individual to the memories from the actualized past database of that individual’s prior life experiences would speed up and facilitate that person’s growth process as he/she continues to have interactive experiences in different VRs suitable for that person’s quality of consciousness.


Efficiency Requires that Memories be Put to Good Use Rather than Just Wasted in Storage

- To put away an experience packet in a database, and nothing more, would be a waste of a valuable resource which is contrary to the LCS’ modus operandi of maximizing resources. Instead, the individual informed by that experience packet would continue to interact, from the point he or she left off, with other conscious beings, all of whom bring their own experience packets into the mix, and the resulting interactions continue to foster the growth and development of all of these conscious beings.


Retention of Intuitive Quality by Copying it into a New Being Eliminates Any Need for Reincarnation

- The quality attained by the intuitive side can be retained on earth by copying it into a newly created individual.
- Memories are not important to a copy and pasted awareness because it is newly created and starts off with a new avatar for which the memories of the original awareness it is copied from would be incompatible. However, the memories would be very useful to the original awareness, if it gets back a respawned avatar (in a different VR) that is substantially similar to the one it had on earth because it could continue where it left off without having many years of catching up to do before attaining relative net positive growth in quality of consciousness.


Past Memories Aid Growth by Accentuation of the Positive/Overcoming of the Negative

- Overall, losing access to memories does not confer any general advantage over retaining access. Whereas retaining access offers great advantages. Both negative and positive memories can come with valuable lessons. Both teach lessons about what to do and what not to do, about what works and what doesn’t, about what needs to be overcome, and what needs to be embraced, and about how we need to orient ourselves toward becoming at the being level.
- Having to deal with and surmount whatever issues come to you through your unique identity and experiences, is far better for growth than shedding them and starting completely new ones over and over again and having to relearn old lessons over and over again.
- You surmount your character-related identity by dealing with it, and transcending it, not by having it routinely taken away from you and taking on a new one.
- The memories and intellect of a person and how they interact with the person’s intuitive side and with other conscious beings are part of what contributes to an individual’s uniqueness, and provides additional value to the diversity of experiences that make up the entire ecosystem of consciousness. It would seem that the LCS would want to preserve the uniqueness, diversity, and perspective that a specific individual’s character traits adds to the system as a living and unified whole which continues to evolve holistically instead of losing it by breaking off half of it, and just filing it away in a database.
- Quality of consciousness is found at the being level; however, our memories and intellect provide a context and a framework in which to understand that quality and further develop it. If we lose that contextual awareness, then we tend to de-evolve more readily and it can take several decades to get back to where we were previously. That’s why reincarnation would be so inefficient as compared to respawning into another VR with our memories and intellect intact. A more advanced being does indeed want to become a teacher and help others, and he can be given plenty of opportunity to do so in another VR, while a copy of his qualitative side can go into a newly born human being who can help people on earth, albeit at a slower pace. There is no reason for the LCS not to build out other VRs with graduates from earth, while their intuitive quality carries on in this world, in newly created human beings.


Reincarnation is Predicated on the Assumption that Earth is the Only Viable Platform for Continued Growth

- It’s possible that the MBT model was influenced by preexisting ideas about reincarnation in its interpretation of the afterlife because between two popular views (a Heaven/Hell binary versus the recycling of souls perspective) the recycle view is the one that offers any possibility of further development of the consciousness. If intermediate conceptualizations such as Purgatory, were not considered as a frame of reference but only the Heaven/Hell binary and reincarnation, then only reincarnation would have provided the MBT model with an interpretive structure that was compatible with the further evolution of consciousness in the afterlife.
- Moreover, belief in reincarnation generally develops based on the assumption that earth is the most conducive, if not the only conducive reality in existence for the continued growth and development of individuals who start out here.
- Some of us who have experienced other three-dimensional high-resolution VRs cannot help but to suspect that some of those VRs are for the continued evolution of individuals whose initial formative experiences took place in this VR. As I argue here, it is more than just possible that such is the case, but necessary and indispensable to the love-centered and efficient evolution of consciousness.


Growth Optimizing Diversity Requires Other VRs for Maximizing the Number of Unique Individuals

- The functional continuation of character-related identity that comes when a respawned avatar continues in another VR promotes far greater diversity in the overall LCS and opportunities for growth.
- Moreover, putting advanced beings back on earth without access to the memories of the experiences that promoted their advancement can contribute to unnecessary de-evolution.
- The continuation of character-related identity in other VRs does not mean that those identities remain static. On the contrary, they continue to evolve over time. They are preserved enough to avoid having to repeat the same lessons over and over again, but not enough to prevent them from continuing to grow and evolve into something better.
- The continuation of the connection between a conscious being and a particular avatar makes the being more unique, increases diversity because more newly created beings are then needed to fill up available characters on earth, and results in many more combinations, permutations and variations that magnify the value of experiences throughout the ecosystem of consciousness.
- Reincarnation on the other hand, is functionally equivalent to annihilation for the living integrated system made up holistically of the experiences, memories, processing, intuition, and their associated avatar, and a major interruption to the contextual awareness that informs the intuition, leading to a substantial increase in the time needed to achieve relative net positive growth over the previous lifetime. However, contact with deceased loved ones, in recognizable form, teaches that the opposite of reincarnation is true.


The Inviolable Uniqueness of the Individual as an Ethical Principle of the LCS is Necessitated by Love

- As love is the LCS’ central organizing principle, it follows that it loves us despite the free-will driven uniqueness that defines us as individuals, even as flawed, egocentric, and character-identified as that uniqueness may be, and hence would not make destruction of that uniqueness its modus operandi in achieving growth. To the contrary, it would make our free-will transcendence of that uniqueness its modus operandi.


Examples of How Contact with Actual Departed Loved Ones Could be Enabled by the LCS

- Example 1: Joe passes away and is now in the transition reality. His brother Mark who passed away 5 years earlier is asleep for the night in the VR that currently constitutes his dominant data stream. While asleep he finds himself in what could be described as a lucid dream, which coincides with Joe’s transition reality. A guide approaches Mark and tells him his brother Joe has just arrived and needs some encouragement since he is somewhat apprehensive about his new surroundings. Mark, who is excited to see his brother Joe and eager to help him out, gladly greets Joe and spends some time talking with him before the guide comes back and takes Joe to the next stage of the transition process. Mark wakes up in his home base VR very happy to have spent some time with his brother.
- Example 2: In example 1 above, Joe tells Mark he is nervous about his daughter Susan who must be taking his passing very hard, and really wishes he could talk to her one last time to assure her that he is alright. They ask the guide who is standing nearby if there is any way this could be done. The LCS considers this an appropriate situation to grant this request, so the guide hands Joe a phone and tells him he may call but instructs him to make it very brief because Susan will be too shocked and confused upon hearing his voice to engage in any meaningful conversation with him. Joe calls her and tells her he is fine, not to worry, and that he loves her. Once Susan gets over the initial shock and disbelief over what happened, she always looks back on it with great joy. She tells no one other than her family about it because she doesn’t want people to think she’s crazy. Some of her relatives don’t know what to make of it, while others think she hallucinated it. A couple of them conclude that there is something to it because Sally is not one to hallucinate. As a result, they now have a larger perspective on life.
- Example 3: Henry’s wife Emily of 30 years passes away of a terminal illness. A year later in the morning as Henry lays on his side in bed half-awake he suddenly sees his wife laying right next to him. They embrace for a few seconds, then she disappears. As they hugged, he could fully feel her body against his, her arms around him, and his arms around her. There was no mistaking his sense of touch. This was solid matter he was touching, he thought to himself. He concludes this was not a dream, this was really his wife alive and well. His heart leaps for joy. How does something like this happen? As it turns out, his wife has been living in a different VR after her passing from this one. They both missed each other greatly. The LCS considered this a suitable situation to bring some joy to two forlorn souls, as well as create a teachable moment about the nature of reality. Then the right opportunity arose when both were in bed in their respective VRs and only half awake in a theta state. While in the theta state, a consciousness is most open to receiving data feeds from other VRs. At just the right moment, the LCS ensures that each receives the data stream necessary to make the encounter happen.
- Example 4: After years of practicing meditation, a very right brained gentleman becomes skilled at traveling to other VRs, and encounters relatives who have passed away from this VR. One of them is his mother with whom he visits on multiple occasions, catching up with her on her current life, updating her on his, and continuing their mother-son relationship whenever he decides to pay her a visit.
- Example 5: Ed helps his uncle Gary run a hardware store. Everyday Ed arrives earlier than anyone else at the store to open up. As is often the case, while behind the counter Ed looks at the video monitor and sees his uncle approach the store through the outside security camera before his uncle enters the store. After his uncle dies, Ed takes over the store but continues to get there before everyone else. Two years after the passing of his uncle, Ed notices a very familiar sight on the video screen. He can hardly believe his eyes; he sees his uncle approaching the store as he had so many times in the past. “How could this be?” He asks himself. No one actually enters the store. He thinks to himself that he must be mistaken. He replays the video and sure enough it’s his uncle caught on video walking toward the store just as he had done so many times before. He shows the video to others. Most people think it’s a digital glitch where old images got into the digital feed. Ed knows that’s not possible and is now convinced that his uncle’s spirit lives on. What has happened here is that after Uncle Gary left this world, he started a new “experience packet” in a VR which best matched his growth path. His avatar is substantially similar to his old one, so his physical appearance is easily recognizable. When Uncle Gary sleeps, he often has vivid dreams in which he goes back and visits the hardware store. At the opportune moment, while Uncle Gary was having one of these dreams, the LCS fed digital data corresponding to his dream visit into the security surveillance system. The LCS did this to provide Ed with a larger perspective on the nature of reality.


Examples of How Populations Could be Distributed Among Earth-Content Receiving VRs

- If we were to do a simple even distribution of the earth-content containing VRs in which the estimated 100 billion people who have passed away from their initial existence on earth could be spread out in the “afterlife”, we come up with approximately 13 different equally populated VRs.
- If each VR had half the population, then there would be approximately 25 such VRs. If each had a quarter of the population, say 2 billion each, then there would be 50 such VRs, and so on.
- However, the above uncomplicated distributions amongst the different earth related VRs are very basic and for illustrative purposes only.
- They are, however, most likely distributed unevenly along varying lines of functionality.
- There may not be easily identifiable delineations between many of them, and a lot of overlap.
- A number of them are likely to include some non-earth related content.
- Most earth-initiated conscious beings move on to VRs for which earth is the primary, if not the only initial VR trainer and content creator/exporter.


Lower Cognition Animals Do Not Reincarnate Either, Though Their Process Differs From that of Humans

- With the exception perhaps of dolphins and whales, other animals have much lower cognitive abilities than humans resulting in greatly diminished individuation and much more species-specific synchronization of consciousness and instinctive awareness and behavior. Although many possess emotions, intellect, wants, and memories, they are far simpler than those of humans, resulting in mostly negligible amounts of individuation, if any. Therefore, in place of individuation in all respects, including quality of consciousness, they have a breed or species-specific consciousness. Within this context, reincarnation is meaningless. For them survival equates specifically to survival of the species, and more broadly to the survival of consciousness itself.
- If a particular type of quality develops within an animal’s consciousness that the LCS finds useful and wants it to spread, the LCS can propagate it by copying and pasting it into the consciousness of newly born animals and perhaps adjusting the corresponding physical and genetic adaptations accordingly.
- None of this means that there are no animals other than NPC animals in other VRs. The LCS can and will place live animals in other VRs in circumstances in which the LCS considers it conducive to the lowering of entropy, though not necessarily of the animals themselves, but more often of the beings of higher cognition that interact with them.
Last edited by sirchips on Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:51 pm, edited 18 times in total.
Jdjr
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 1172
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by Jdjr »

sirchips wrote:Instead of reincarnating back to earth in a different body with no memories, the weight of experiential evidence and logic suggests that conscious beings incarnate into other virtual realities with their memories intact and with substantially similar bodies.
Please provide a cite, the experiential evidence, or elaborate in detail regarding your assertion that "the weight of experiential evidence suggests that conscious beings incarnate into other virtual realities with their memories intact and with substantially similar bodies".
User avatar
Volgerle
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:10 am
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by Volgerle »

Imv, math and logic, as smart or cool as it sounds, will never really explain the vast possiblities we have as 'souls'. Our 3D thinking does not do the 'math'.

It is right to say that Earth is only one of a xx-zillion possibilities of 'incarnated' existences (lives) to choose from. Not all of them are entirley physical/biochemical by the way.

I do not believe in any reincarnation trap for 'human' souls nor in any hell/heaven system. Souls can get stuck, yes. And thus a so-called 'incarnation' is prolonged as I would call it.

Robert Monroe beautifully examined and explained what happens to hollow heavens or so-called Belief System Territories and how they are kept up. Read his books of that of some others such as Buhlman or Kurt Leland. All are experiencers, imv even more skilled than Tom Campbell, so what they say is not based on mathematical models or 'beliefs' or dogma but on experience. My own humble NPMR experiences also kind of confirm their views, including re-incarnation / multiple lives or your "Higher Self" or IUOC or whatever you want to name it.
"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."
- Max Planck
ranttila
Normal User
Normal User
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by ranttila »

Volgerle,

What books did you like most from Kurt Leland?
sirchips
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by sirchips »

Jdjr wrote: Please provide a cite, the experiential evidence, or elaborate in detail regarding your assertion that "the weight of experiential evidence suggests that conscious beings incarnate into other virtual realities with their memories intact and with substantially similar bodies".
Hi Jdjr. The experiential evidence that I am referring to are the relatively widespread reports of ordinary people of all types that have experienced contact with loved ones that have passed away. I give some examples of the varying types of scenarios that have been reported, and explanations of how the LCS could have brought them about. Read some of the examples I provided under "Examples of How Contact with Actual Deceased Loved Ones Could be Enabled by the LCS" in my post. I contrast these with the lack of reports of people getting reincarnation related insights concerning their departed loved ones. If one accepts that the LCS has an interest in providing us with "a bigger picture" and often does, then one has to take seriously the weight of the experiential evidence in favor of incarnation rather than reincarnation. Logic would dictate that if the LCS is facilitating the former rather than the latter, then the former is more likely to be true.
Human+
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:47 am
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by Human+ »

The math doesn’t support reincarnation as an efficient growth-sustaining mechanism. It reveals enormous inefficiency. If you take an estimate of how many people have ever lived, say 108 billion people, and you multiply by an average of 40 years lag time to catch up to the state of growth they were in when they last lived, you come up with a vast amount of wasted time: 108 billion people x 40 years to catch up = 4,320 000 000 000 (four trillion three hundred and twenty billion) years of wasted growth time.
This is meaningless because MBT does not subscribe to the notion of, "lag time" in this context or, measuring IUOC growth in relation to human avatar age, or even needing to reach the same level of, "growth" in the next lifetime which would probably actually represent a uniquely different data packet and different experience of growth. It just reflects fundamental misunderstanding of MBT. The IUOC resides outside the data stream and so does its evolution and quality of consciousness which is not measured by needing to hit a specific human age or dependent on it.. There isn't necessarily a, "catch up" state of needing to have done the same things.

Incarnating into another VR avoids the 40 year distraction of relearning everything all over again that comes with reincarnation.
Re-incarnation is not about, "re-learning" the same things and being, "distracted" until you hit a particular human age of stuff you did in your last lifetime so you can actually start growing after that point. An IUOC can evolve or de-evolve by the time it reaches 40 or 80. An IUOC does not evolve just relative to a human existing for a particular amount of time and repeating the same stuff across lifetimes in the first place.

You literally have not even looked up the MBT take on reincarnation.

intellectual and memory experience packets lost to database storage rather than allowed to continue evolving with their unique individuality in other VRs
MBT specifically defines a purpose/function for why lifetimes here have to end -> you do not acknowledge this because you literally have not even looked up the MBT take on reincarnation...

If the LCS’ goal is to comfort those in mourning, it could provide insights into the transition to a reincarnated life, which would bring great joy to those in mourning

There is a purpose in incarnating here without pre-existing knowledge of the mechanisms of the LCS. Which is also the reason the LCS does not automatically reveal an afterlife to people only to comfort them in emotionally challenging situations.

You apparently do not know this because, again, you literally have not even looked up the MBT take on reincarnation.

It takes a special level of arrogance to just start running with assumptions and calling things illogical when you literally, have not even looked up how your questionings may be addressed or answered. Maybe someone else has the motivation or time to do the work for you but this is all I cared to read until. P.S. Please do not bother Tom Campbell when you demonstrate you don't even know his take on reincarnation.
Jdjr
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 1172
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by Jdjr »

Greetings Sirchips,

Thanks for your explanation. Clearly you have put much effort into your analysis of reincarnation and the proposed alternate theory. This effort can lay the groundwork for a broader understanding of subjective reality. For me, wrapping my mind around the entire theoretical construct has been a long process. I refer to it as a theory because it is not a belief. I accept it rather than believe in it as an alternate reality that I have experienced as we all have one way or another. The theory is not specific to MBT.

One of the most challenging aspects of this journey has been to hold my focus on the notion that I am more than this physical body and to overcome the outer ego. I know from consciousness exploration and research that I detach emotionally (exceptions noted) from all things earthly once I phase into another data stream. I contend that emotional detachment (emotions being that which is perceived from the outer ego) is the path to grasping the entire theory.

In my view, you are in operation from your outer ego, the conscious personality. When in operation at that level of consciousness "we show our hand". There is a path to your alternate incarnation. Campbell touches on it by mentioning adepts. It is allegedly very rare. Monroe makes reference to it in his last book. You cannot get there by changing the theory. You get there by learning to operate from the inner ego, the "being level", in this lifetime. You must learn to have complete control and dominion of your outer ego conscious personality; mind and body.

Obviously, this is a free will choice. In the "Initiation into Hermetics" Franz Bardon teaches the path to your alternate incarnation. In his "Evocation" you are a consciousness personality detached from the outer ego. In contrast, Jurgen Ziewe subscribes to a relationship with relatives who have "crossed over". But a complete understanding of his subjective reality will lead to detachment from the outer ego.
sirchips
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by sirchips »

Human+ wrote: This is meaningless because MBT does not subscribe to the notion of, "lag time" in this context or, measuring IUOC growth in relation to human avatar age, or even needing to reach the same level of, "growth" in the next lifetime which would probably actually represent a uniquely different data packet and different experience of growth. It just reflects fundamental misunderstanding of MBT. The IUOC resides outside the data stream and so does its evolution and quality of consciousness which is not measured by needing to hit a specific human age or dependent on it.. There isn't necessarily a, "catch up" state of needing to have done the same things.
Human+, you say that MBT does not subscribe to the notion of lag time. While I agree that MBT does not see "lag time" as problematic, you have to understand that Tom Campbell himself has acknowledged that there is indeed a period of time, which for the average person is measured in decades, in which the person is catching up to the quality of consciousness where he last left off. As Campbell put it, it takes on average 40 years for a person to be caught up again. That's because babies start off as the center of their universe because of all the attention that they require. It takes varying amounts of time and experience to shed that self-centerdness, depending on the core quality they already possessed when they started that life.
Human+ wrote: Re-incarnation is not about, "re-learning" the same things and being, "distracted" until you hit a particular human age of stuff you did in your last lifetime so you can actually start growing after that point. An IUOC can evolve or de-evolve by the time it reaches 40 or 80. An IUOC does not evolve just relative to a human existing for a particular amount of time and repeating the same stuff across lifetimes in the first place.
I understand that an individual may evolve or de-evolve by the time they reach a certain age, and that it's not tied repeating the same experiences. I never used that in my analysis, because everyone has different experiences and everyone has there own unique qualities that interact with those experiences. I don't see how this undermines my point which is that starting off as a child we would have much to re-learn, and re-contextualize before we regain a degree of maturity that we might have had in a prior life.
Human+ wrote: MBT specifically defines a purpose/function for why lifetimes here have to end -> you do not acknowledge this because you literally have not even looked up the MBT take on reincarnation...
I've been listening to every single new Tom Campbell video that has come out in the past two and a half years, so I think I'm fairly well-versed on much of the theory. As far as why lifetimes here have to end, I've heard Tom Campbell attribute this to 1) the biological ruleset, and 2) to not be stuck in a rut where your growth has stagnated or even started to de-evolve, and to therefore be given new growth opportunities with a new experience packet, and 3) Evolution is a very slow and incremental process which requires many lifetimes for substantial evolution to take place. I understand all of that, but again how does this undermine my argument? In fact, I was already taking all of this into account in my post. If I am missing something, please elaborate so we can further the discussion.

You also said, "There is a purpose in incarnating here without pre-existing knowledge of the mechanisms of the LCS. Which is also the reason the LCS does not automatically reveal an afterlife to people only to comfort them in emotionally challenging situations." I did not dispute that we don't have pre-existing knowledge of the mechanisms of the LCS. Not sure how that relates to the points I made. As far as comforting people in emotionally challenging situations, Tom has said that the LCS does do that at times. My point is that if the LCS does that, why do that in a misleading way? That would tend toward increasing entropy over time rather than lowering it because the revealed information wouldn't fit the facts, thereby leading to cognitive dissonance, controversy, and mistrust of the LCS. It also, doesn't square with the LCS' love for us to mislead us unnecessarily.

Human+, you have called me arrogant and said I do not even know his take on reincarnation. I dispute that I don't know his take on reincarnation, since I have been listening to him for the past two and a half years. Nothing that you have posted thus far has provided any points on reincarnation that I wasn't already familiar with. However, if there is some aspect of it that I may have overlooked, I am more than open to exploring it fully.

As for calling me arrogant, if there's anything that I know that Tom has stated, and it seems that you have missed this point, is that telling people that they are not grown up, even if it were true, is not a very grown up thing to do.
johnswanfractile
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by johnswanfractile »

,
Last edited by johnswanfractile on Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sainbury
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 6575
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 pm
Location: Ocala, FL
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by Sainbury »

sirchips - Tom's TOE works together and not in pieces. You cannot look at the MBT theory through the lens of your PMR character and get an accurate picture of how reality works. Your IUOC is not the character you are playing now. And frankly, everyone's past history isn't very important. What is important is what you are doing right now with this character in this experience. Because all that is left when this experience packet is over is your QoC, (Quality of Consciousness.)

The LCS graduated from one consciousness to many pieces of consciousness, to many conscious things with free will communicating between each other, to portioned off bits of consciousness playing a character in PMRs. The LCS has continued to expand, change, and grow.

The IOUCs do not have the processing capability to retain memories, although that data is always available to access in the Actualized Past Database.

And you can be pretty sure that the LCS has tried almost everything including new FWAUs retaining some past life memories. That it isn't the norm tells you that strategy didn't work out. To burden an FWAU with memories of past fears, grudges, loves, etc. is not helpful. It is much better to start over with whatever entropy level you attained last time and work with new challenges.

If you are any student of history then you can see that this PMR has slowly evolved through the ages. And that is because the pieces of consciousness playing the characters are evolving and it is reflected in history. Time has little meaning. It takes as long as it takes.

I am not arguing that it doesn't happen. But the LCS uses many methods to nudge us to wake up to a larger reality. And yet most of the characters in this PMR continue to slog through their lives with a very limited viewpoint.

People who think they have contacted their deceased loved one are interpreting information through their own beliefs, fears, ego, expectations, and so forth. And often second hand after the information is processed the same way by a medium. In the end it is more important that the information is helpful and not the source. Say a medium tells a woman, who is grieving over losing a young child, that the child is well and with relatives 'on the other side.' It doesn't matter that the account isn't accurate if the information allows the woman to move through the grieving process and go on with her life. It is the positive end result that matters.
Retention of the memories from an individual’s earthly experiences would speed up and facilitate that person’s growth process as he/she continues to have interactive experiences in a different VR suitable for that person’s quality of consciousness.
Tom was shown a reality where evolved beings incarnated and didn't interact with lesser consciousnesses. They started de-evolving pretty quickly. They didn't have the intense challenges that kept them evolving in the normal PMRs. Evolved beings teach and help. They don't evolve to a cloud where they can pat each other on the back on how wonderful they are.
The quality attained by the intuitive side can be retained on earth by copying it as a newly created individual.
Playing a character in a PMR means that your character is the product of the ruleset of this VR. And the first challenge is the genetics of the new individual. Intuition may be limited by that toss of the genetics. You get what you get, and you do the best you can with what you get.
It’s possible that the MBT model was influenced by preexisting ideas about reincarnation in its interpretation of the afterlife because between two popular views (a Heaven/Hell binary versus the recycling of souls perspective) the recycle view is the one that offers any possibility of further development of the consciousness.
No. And here is where you are disadvantaged by not reading the book. Tom explored NPMR with science based method. He experimented and repeated experiments. PMRs are not the only way to evolve, but they are the most common and the fastest.
- The preservation of identity that comes when a respawned avatar continues in another VR promotes far greater diversity in the overall LCS and opportunities for growth.
You seem to be stuck on the idea that the character you are playing will not be continued, cherished, and repeated. But in a way that is not true. If you have a successful incarnation, then many of the characteristics you have will be used again. But you as the person you are now will not be repeated. This may seem important and even scary to you now, but it won't matter at all to you at the IUOC level.
Examples of How Contact with Actual Deceased Loved Ones Could be Enabled by the LCS
I imagine this happens more than you would suppose. But people don't remember, reject the information, or remember a garbled version. I had a dream of my deceased husband shortly after he died. It was quite enlightening.
Lower Cognition Animals Do Not Reincarnate Either, Though Their Process Differs From that of Humans
What a different world this would be if the only other consciousnesses able to make free will choices were only those able to process the information of a chimp up. We get great diversity and randomness with the free will choices of other life forms. And it allows a greater diversity to evolve.
User avatar
Sainbury
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 6575
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 pm
Location: Ocala, FL
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by Sainbury »

i been out of body many times and all i know is there are countless realities out there where you can seem to keep your memories and all of that.
That is because your primary residence and focus are this PMR. So you are exploring through the character you are playing in this PMR. And that character has memories.
johnswanfractile
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by johnswanfractile »

Sainbury wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:48 pm
i been out of body many times and all i know is there are countless realities out there where you can seem to keep your memories and all of that.
That is because your primary residence and focus are this PMR. So you are exploring through the character you are playing in this PMR. And that character has memories.
but isn't your IUOC just "you" combined with all the experiences you ever had? so like i know i am not my avatar etc but when i meld with my iuoc isn't it just still me making free will choices but from a much higher perspective? it makes sense what you are saying and i don't disagree but from an iuoc perspective let's say i am not currently in a VR... and i am kind of just hanging out... as an iuoc i still make free will choices just may be a tad different with a blend of all the experiences i have ever had. i always thought our true personality without faking it... without trying to please others... no fear.. no ego... not trying to make people like us... that's basically our iuoc at that given time.

or are you saying when i die i basically get a brain wipe because im no longer "john" as i am in this VR? as an iuoc couldn't i be like oh ya.... i remember that life i lived as john. that was crazy!... and kinda just move on not identifying with that character?
sirchips
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 12:20 pm
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by sirchips »

Sainbury wrote: sirchips - Tom's TOE works together and not in pieces. You cannot look at the MBT theory through the lens of your PMR character and get an accurate picture of how reality works. Your IUOC is not the character you are playing now. And frankly, everyone's past history isn't very important. What is important is what you are doing right now with this character in this experience. Because all that is left when this experience packet is over is your QoC, (Quality of Consciousness.)
Hi Sainbury. Yes, Tom has put together his TOE under a certain logic, some of which may be thrown off to some extent if you try to replace a piece of it. However, incarnation to the VRs is not irreconcilable with the main aspects of the theory, i.e. that physical reality is information-based and that consciousness is fundamental. Even the IUOC/oversoul/damon/accumulator function, whatever you want to call it, fits with incarnation. I'm not saying that the avatar is intrinsic to the deepest layer of our reality, nor that our past history is either. And I agree that there is a certain quality of consciousness at our core that evolves or de-evolves. And yes, what you are doing in the present is what's most important. So far so good. However, our history, our memories, our character, our individuality, all play a role in the growth process, as does the physical reality and its content. If one proposes that coming back here over and over again after a brain wipe and a change of costume is the LCS' modus operandi, then it has to make sense, it has to be logical, and it has to be efficient. So far, that does not appear to be the case, but I don't want to leave it at that. I want to explore all of the strongest arguments in favor of reincarnation, so that we may understand them, analyze them, and see if they hold up to scrutiny.
Sainbury wrote: The IOUCs do not have the processing capability to retain memories, although that data is always available to access in the Actualized Past Database.
Perhaps the IUOCs don't have the processing capability to retain too many memories, maybe they can access memories from the database as needed. Doesn't really matter. I have trouble remembering what I ate for lunch yesterday. The IUOC doesn't need to remember everything, only important things like significant life experiences and what we learn from them. Learning from these experiences is why we're here. Having the very experiences that PMRs are here to provide erased from our memories contradicts the whole point of learning from them. It is very inefficient to retain the core quality only and to forget everything else because without the contextual memory to make sense of it all, we would be set back at birth when we once again become, of necessity, very self-centered beings as infants.
Sainbury wrote: And you can be pretty sure that the LCS has tried almost everything including new FWAUs retaining some past life memories. That it isn't the norm tells you that strategy didn't work out. To burden an FWAU with memories of past fears, grudges, loves, etc. is not helpful. It is much better to start over with whatever entropy level you attained last time and work with new challenges.
When you say that it isn't the norm, you are presupposing that new FWAUs on earth had past lives. That may not be a correct assumption. My argument is that they are here for the first and only time, then they move on to other VRs in accordance with their needs, and that that is more efficient for promoting growth than reincarnation. If you are saying that the entire slate needs to be wiped clean otherwise they would be too burdened with bad memories, there is a mechanism that deals with that, and it has nothing to do with reincarnation. We see it in people who have had extremely traumatic experiences. Some of them simply don't remember the event, as a defense mechanism. They don't, however, forget everything else in life.
Sainbury wrote: If you are any student of history then you can see that this PMR has slowly evolved through the ages. And that is because the pieces of consciousness playing the characters are evolving and it is reflected in history. Time has little meaning. It takes as long as it takes.
The characters are evolving, but that doesn't establish reincarnation because the LCS has the ability to copy a previous individual's quality into a new born individual, while the original individual moves on to a different VR. I wouldn't say time has little meaning. Yes, it takes as long as it takes but if there is a way for it to take less time, and be more efficient, the LCS will do it. Efficiency applies both in the physical world and in consciousness.
Sainbury wrote: People who think they have contacted their deceased loved one are interpreting information through their own beliefs, fears, ego, expectations, and so forth. And often second hand after the information is processed the same way by a medium. In the end it is more important that the information is helpful and not the source. Say a medium tells a woman, who is grieving over losing a young child, that the child is well and with relatives 'on the other side.' It doesn't matter that the account isn't accurate if the information allows the woman to move through the grieving process and go on with her life. It is the positive end result that matters.


When you say "people who think" you are presupposing that their experience wasn't true. You used the example of a medium. Sure you can say that about a medium, but I never used mediums in any of my examples. In my examples direct contact was made and it was visual, tactile, and/or auditory. The role of the LCS in my examples was to enable the contact to take place, not to fake it. The only reason that MBT has to interpret these types of experiences as unreal is to compatibilize them with its belief in reincarnation. If reincarnation is true then the experiences must be untrue. This is the one part of MBT where it appears that "belief" (in reincarnation) rather than logic, experience, and reason has prevailed.
johnswanfractile wrote: Tom was shown a reality where evolved beings incarnated and didn't interact with lesser consciousnesses. They started de-evolving pretty quickly. They didn't have the intense challenges that kept them evolving in the normal PMRs. Evolved beings teach and help. They don't evolve to a cloud where they can pat each other on the back on how wonderful they are.
I agree with that. I never said that they go to a cloud but to other VRs where they can continue to evolve and help others.
Sainbury wrote: Playing a character in a PMR means that your character is the product of the ruleset of this VR. And the first challenge is the genetics of the new individual. Intuition may be limited by that toss of the genetics. You get what you get, and you do the best you can with what you get.
Yes, but that character can also be recreated in other PMRs after its done with this one. Genetics, like everything else that is physical is an output of something deeper, which is consciousness. Therefore, the LCS can log the copied intuition into the character it deems appropriate, and allow the genetics to reflect it.
Sainbury wrote: No. And here is where you are disadvantaged by not reading the book. Tom explored NPMR with science based method. He experimented and repeated experiments. PMRs are not the only way to evolve, but they are the most common and the fastest.
But I never said that we don't continue to evolve in PMR, just not this one.
Sainbury wrote: You seem to be stuck on the idea that the character you are playing will not be continued, cherished, and repeated. But in a way that is not true. If you have a successful incarnation, then many of the characteristics you have will be used again. But you as the person you are now will not be repeated. This may seem important and even scary to you now, but it won't matter at all to you at the IUOC level.
It's not that I'm scared about losing the character. I'm willing to embrace reincarnation if it fit the evidence, and if it made sense. It doesn't.
Sainbury wrote: I imagine this happens more than you would suppose. But people don't remember, reject the information, or remember a garbled version. I had a dream of my deceased husband shortly after he died. It was quite enlightening.
Dreams can undoubtedly be special, enlightening, and of tremendous value. But they are, phenomenologically speaking, readily distinguishable from the type of experiences that I described in my examples. MBT holds that these experiences are machinated by the LCS with no involvement by the departed being that they purport to represent. This interpretation appears to be driven not by logic but rather by belief in reincarnation. Without that belief clouding one's judgment, the logical conclusion to be drawn is that while the LCS enables these experiences to take place, the departed being is also there as an active participant sharing in the experience.
User avatar
Sainbury
Power Poster
Power Poster
Posts: 6575
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:54 pm
Location: Ocala, FL
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by Sainbury »

but isn't your IUOC just "you" combined with all the experiences you ever had? so like i know i am not my avatar etc but when i meld with my iuoc isn't it just still me making free will choices but from a much higher perspective? it makes sense what you are saying and i don't disagree but from an iuoc perspective let's say i am not currently in a VR... and i am kind of just hanging out... as an iuoc i still make free will choices just may be a tad different with a blend of all the experiences i have ever had. i always thought our true personality without faking it... without trying to please others... no fear.. no ego... not trying to make people like us... that's basically our iuoc at that given time. or are you saying when i die i basically get a brain wipe because im no longer "john" as i am in this VR? as an iuoc couldn't i be like oh ya.... i remember that life i lived as john. that was crazy!... and kinda just move on not identifying ith that character?
Your IUOC is the entropy level from all the experiences its ever had. If your IUOC isn't participating in some kind of VR it is just potential. It is just acting as a part of the whole LCS. There are no choices to make outside of some kind of virtual reality.

The LCS is really one big digital information system. But in order to explain, Tom has parceled out the functions of the LCS and named them. An IUOC that has lowered its entropy enough may get some input in the next experience packet. The chunk of consciousness, FWAU, gets a data stream via the RWW, (Reality Wide Web,) from The Big Computer. That data stream has the information of the character it is playing in the PMR. That quality of that data is influenced by the ruleset of the PMR. If that character is born with the cord around its neck and has oxygen deprivation causing brain damage, the data sent to the FWAU will reflect that.

The FWAU is able to interpret the data it gets, modify the data, create new data, (make free will choices,) change data, and send data. When the ruleset of the PMR can no longer host the character, (illness, accident, old age, etc.,) it dies.The PMR data stream is no longer sent to the FWAU. The FWAU gets a new data stream from The Big Computer via the RWW representing a reality for characters that have just died. All the data from the experience packet of the FWAU has continually uploaded into the Actualized Past Database. And that is where the data of that life is stored and where it can be accessed.

The FWAU at some point realizes that it is no longer 'alive.' And at that point the IUOC is one thing again. What is retained is the Quality of Consciousness, (QoC,) from the last experience packet. Information from that past life, or any other past life, can be accessed from the Actualized Past Database for reference or teaching. The IUOC could go into the Unactualized Past Database and explore some 'what if' scenarios either by getting the data stream, or by just running probabilities.

The past characters are not important and do not continue other than stored data. Some characteristics of the character may be used again in new experience packets if they proved beneficial in evolving. So, in that way you may live on in new experiences.
johnswanfractile
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:12 pm
Contact:

Re: The Case Against Reincarnation

Post by johnswanfractile »

[/quote] Your IUOC is the entropy level from all the experiences its ever had. If your IUOC isn't participating in some kind of VR it is just potential. It is just acting as a part of the whole LCS. There are no choices to make outside of some kind of virtual reality.
[/quote]

what about interacting with iuocs in the npmr? surely they make choices even if its slower to evolve or what not. some beings have never gone to a VR like earth
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy/Metaphysics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest