Truth and ego

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Shinoki
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Truth and ego

Post by Shinoki »

Wanted to start this thread in order to get a better understanding of Truth, ego, fear, and the like. The hope is to reduce entropy. Truth with it's attributes, consistency, accuracy, pure, etc., are much like entropy. Maybe that's what Tom was trying to tell me before, as it went over my head. Looking for better ways to be more consistent and stable in my life, something sorely lacking.

What I have so far is work in progress, and it's not very linear, so please except my apologies and bear with me. I need to get as much out as I can before the wind blows and I'm chasing something else.

An thanks Tom for giving me a place to do this,

Shin
Last edited by Shinoki on Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Truth and ego

Post by Shinoki »

The Lie.

Where did it come from, and what is it's purpose?

I was taught that the father of the lie was the devil. However that's not much help anymore. So I borrowed some evolutionary theories, least I think so, to help demonstrate the answer. It's a product of competitive stress...

Starting out with a microbe in a pond, that has the resources for it to grow, and multiply. Eventually the population will reach the limitations of the pond. This creates competition, and stress within the population, forcing change. Some of the changes could be more efficient use of materials, while others my become predatory in nature. Eventually the tactic of camouflage will be used. Camouflage is a form of deception, and if a wolf could wear sheep's clothing it would be the prefect example. So it starts off as a survival tactic within a competitively stressful environment.

Some other examples would be in the use of a lie to avoid trouble, lying in our resume in the hopes of landing that job, and making promises, that we don't intend to keep, in order to gain votes. It can be useful, as long as you don't get caught, for the individual, and or a group that employs such tactics.

However if an individual(s) use it within the group it can become detrimental. Trust can be lost, along with a myriad of other problems. I asked my sister if the electric fence was off, and she replied "yes". However as soon as I grabbed it I found out it wasn't... this of coarse didn't help our trust relationship. We can see this problem throughout society, like the general mistrust of politicians, and salesmen. If the group can't overcome the problem, and grow from it, eventually the group could fall apart. Such lying is self-centered (only helping the one who lies), and taxing to the group, because it diverts resources away from areas that benefit the hole to the lier. Cancer may be good a example.

Shin
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Re: Truth and ego

Post by Shinoki »

Fear

Where did it come from, and what's it's use?

I like to use apprehension as the definition: "anticipation of adversity or misfortune; suspicion or fear of future trouble or evil."

I can remember far back as the crib, but can't remember what the first instance of fear was. So I don't think it's something we are born with. I can remember bad things happening to me, and then having a fear of them recurring. Like falling out of a tree, did this often, and then being afraid to clime high, and or on smaller branches that I may have used before the fall.

So fear is something we develop after misfortune befalls us.

Is this an overreaction of our prediction mechanism? Maybe the start of ego?

If shyness is fear based then maybe we are born with it. I was very shy in my younger years, and can't think of what would of caused it. It took many many years to overcome it. Is it based on the fear of not being excepted? Something I'm still dealing with.

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Re: Truth and ego

Post by Shinoki »

Ego

As MojiDoji pointed out, I really need to define what it is. This, of coarse, can be subject to change as we go along. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this how MBT defined it?

"Ego is a protection mechanism against our fears, especially the fear of the unknown."

After watching the movies Alien, and The Thing I couldn't sleep for days. I swear there was something going to jump out of the closet, or from under the bed, and get me. So I hermetically sealed the blanket around me in the effort keep them monsters from getting in. Apparently it worked, cause I'm still alive :)

Examining this we can deduce a few things. First that the monsters were imaginary. Second if they were real a blanket isn't going to stop them lol.

The blanket is what I call the ego. It hides you from those nasty monsters. Wile under the blanket it provides a sense of security, much to the analogy of being in a box. I had control of what was under, or in the box, and anything on the outside couldn't touch me, or didn't matter.

I currently believe it's parasitic in nature, and blame it for just about everything that has gone wrong with the world. However that's now, and it may change as the truth of it is uncovered.

Shin
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Re: Truth and ego

Post by bette »

Hi Shin

Can you put into words exactly what the lie you are talking about is?

Shin said: "The Lie.

Where did it come from, and what is it's purpose?"

Is it our thinking the PMR is all there is? Is it religion, and if so what specific part (God, perhaps, or the paternal aspect)? Did I miss something in the trilogy? To me all the lies in the PMR come from iouc not knowing better, not realizing quality consciousness isn't built upon lies. I don't lie to anyone but myself because I remember truths in the PMR better. Truths in the PMR are things such as when paying taxes be honest so that 10 years from now you can say "hey, I don't recall but whatever I filed was the truth." that sort of thing.

I do not understand the concept of "The Lie" to apply it to the bigger picture, only ignorance is involved there. Not knowing, no one lied to me about MBT concepts as I wasn't raised religious, and even if I was it would have been a matter of a belief being passed rather than being lied to.

There really is no purpose for ignorance other than it is required for learning, if you already knew everything there is no room for learning. I had just enough past experiences in PMR to recognize the truth of I have been learning here.

I believe Tom has pointed out that fear is the opposite of love, I think he said that somewhere anyway. There are so many lies in the PMR I would be hard pressed to narrow it done to one, have you done this?

Thanks for the posts.

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Re: Truth and ego

Post by Shinoki »

Bette: "Can you put into words exactly what the lie you are talking about is?", "There are so many lies in the PMR I would be hard pressed to narrow it done to one, have you done this?"

I try to distill everything down to it's basic components. Lie, deceive, misinformation, etc. are to me all the same thing in different context, or situations. So yes in a way, but this is work in progress, as I'll try to demonstrate next.

Bette: "I do not understand the concept of "The Lie" to apply it to the bigger picture, only ignorance is involved there."

Thanks for the feedback it got me thinking.

Ignorance defined as "lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc. uninformed; unaware"

lie defined as "deliberate intent to deceive"

deceive defined as "to mislead or falsely persuade others"

In my mind maybe lie could be defined as "the deliberate intent to create, or maintain ignorance". Maybe if we look at it in the light of the one who is being lied too "ignorant, lack the knowledge, or unaware of the truth". Any who it's something to work on.

Bette: "I believe Tom has pointed out that fear is the opposite of love, I think he said that somewhere anyway."

Yeah I couldn't tell you where it is either. It makes sense to me in the bigger picture. What's interesting is that we have always defined the opposite of fear to be courage, and the opposite of love is hate. It has become apparent to me that I'm ignorant of the true meaning behind much of the words I use. Define love for me, all I understand it as some fuzzy thing that isn't well defined. That is generally what I'm after in this discussion, an attempt to better define the meaning of words with personal experience in effort to uncover greater truth. And when your a person like me with poor command of language it gets difficult to say the least. O well I'll keep going.

Thanks again,

Shin
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Re: Truth and ego

Post by Stroker »

Shinoki: Define love for me, all I understand it as some fuzzy thing that isn't well defined.

Hiya Shin! I found something I wrote for a group 7 or 8 years ago that might still work in a pinch. My big picture has gotten a lot bigger since then, but it still rings true. Here tis.


"Love means different things to different people. Some things are common to us all. Love is when you see the beauty in a person, a place, or a thing. You transcend the boundaries of being alone inside yourself, and see a reflection of your own inner beauty in the other. You feel the joy of knowing that this thing outside yourself is also a part of you. It doesn't matter if it is children playing in the rain, a pale full moon, the sun glittering on the sea, or the sparkle in your lover's eyes.

For a moment you share, you are not separated by the material world, but joined by something beyond the physical. No wonder it is so precious that we fear it being taken away, of losing love. Myself, I would rather have a memory of joy than an empty heart. No one can take our memories from us. When we realize we are never alone, then we know nothing is ever lost. Never be afraid to love."


Ah well, its a hard thing to define my friend Shinoki :)
always, John
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Re: Truth and ego

Post by bette »

Here is my old definition of love, my PMR definition.

Love is when you really, really, really, really, really, like someone. The more really's the greater the love.

Now love has a more selfless bent to it, my liking something/one has nothing to do with it as I love that which I do not even know yet, so how could I like it. I also can love that which I do not like, such as the father I had this time around. Love has also been reduced to types of love here, while real love, or non-PMR love probably isn't. I don't know if it is a recombination of all the agape, eros, brotherly and all that, or something beyond that. I do know that love can power through many challenges here, love is power, motivation, to me. When I am "in love" I can do anything. I love love.

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Re: Truth and ego

Post by Shinoki »

Now that's a different way of looking at it, never crossed my mind that way. Thank you Stroker.

I'm with Bette on her definition, that's how I understand it. However when I was growing up we were so inundated with sex that many of us would interchange sex for love. After that the meaning had become so obscure that it was lost. The other definition was "God is love", but that just made things worse, because I couldn't grasp the concept. It was beyond me, and so there I was once again baffled.

A friend came down for a few days last week. We ate the things we did long ago, candy, MtDew, and other junk food. After being on a diet to get closer to Tom's, it recked my body. Thought "I sure don't love myself with this kind of abuse". Here again an exchange of words, love for care... "I sure don't care about myself with this kind of abuse".

It may be the one thing that defines everything. Love, compassion, kind, patient, humble, charitable, caring, selfless, etc, has always seemed interconnected, or codependent. Anywho something to work on.

Thank you two for sharing :)

Shin
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Re: Truth and ego

Post by bette »

[quote="Stroker"] Myself, I would rather have a memory of joy than an empty heart. No one can take our memories from us. When we realize we are never alone, then we know nothing is ever lost. Never be afraid to love."
[/quote]

Hi Stroker
Your thought reminded me of a well used saying I like: It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.

Now I can see the "and lost" in a different light of only lost in PMR. I'm getting a much clearer perception of love with the reading of the second Monroe book and the lessons with animals he has shared so far. I also just today experienced a lesson concerning a dog living here (my daughter's boyfriends dog, Dyna) requiring $500 of service today I normally wouldn't have near the money for but did as I got a financial aid disbursement recently, as well as the putting to sleep of our cat recently not as fast as I should have because of attachment meaning she had to live in pain longer than needed (she had breast cancer). The lessons I learned are that I did the best I could considering my daughters attachment to the cat (Missy) as far as delaying her release, and that I love Dyna and its "only money". The biggest thing is that I have been able to share what I am reading of Monroe's experience with the lessons he went through, the clicking out to retry with my daughter and her boyfriend in such a way as they are able to a little bit better think I am not so full of it when discussion MBT consciousness with them. This way I hope it will help them reduce the fear that their loving the animals with us here brings to them at the thought of losing them. Me too, lessons to reduce my fear more.

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Bette
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Re: Truth and ego

Post by Stroker »

Hi Bette :)
I loved Monroe's books too. Its always hard to say goodbye to our animal friends, even when we know it time. We miss them! They love us just for who we are to them and its hard to feel that way towards other people with all the complications that come with it. Our fears are the biggest roadblock to experiencing love as part of our being. I've read all your posts and you've come a long way since you were young. Me too. I was a mess and almost self destructed. For what its worth I am proud of you for what you have achieved because I have walked some of the same roads and know you've done some serious bootstrapping. For all the pain and struggle, you are much more than you would have been with a safe, dull, comfortable life. Sounds like you have overcome many fears already and are stronger than you know. The more fears you lose, the easier it is to learn to love as a way of being.

Love ya back
always, John
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Re: Truth and ego

Post by cherie31258 »

Hi Bette,
Sorry to hear about your beloved pet leaving,but thank you for doing the one last thing you could for them,being there when they were put to sleep.
As a veterinary nurse it always hurt me to see people rushing out of the surgery when their animals were to be put to sleep,oh so upset and crying,full of pain,which i umderstood BUT what about the poor animal? Left alone with strangers to be put to sleep with no familar voice in its ear or stroking its head? I have been called callous/unsympathetic for my attitude but after all the love and loyalty most animals display towards their owners the one last thing that you can do as an owner is to stay with them at the end,it hurts you yes,tough! Do it for the animal. People are inherently selfish and this i can deal with except when it comes to animals.
I have had many dogs put to sleep mainly due to illness but three were put to sleep because of behaviour problems. I tried so hard with them.(American pit bull terrier,Shar Pei and a Chow chow)the hardest things is to put to sleep a perfectly healthy dog.(It is difficult enough when they are ill) All three were wonderful wonderful loyal animals to me and no one will know the pain and guilt i have suffered since but there really was no solution. Where i live the attitude towards animals is primitive to say the least and as they were by nature fighting dogs I knew that to find homes for them that i would be happy with would be impossible. They would be better off where i knew they would never bee ill treated or abused...Ouch! it still hurts...I now Robert Monroe talks about belief territories and also Tom. Great! Drop me off on Canine Central for a few centuries and then Orangutang Orchard and then maybe Kitty Catacombs.
I haven't done very much with my life at all,except made and spent money,and i am now at the point where if i was to leave PMR i would be rather embarassed at my sum total of achievements.No successful relatopnships,no academic achievments, no monumental effort in anything except my love for animals.(I am not even a particularly good mother,my son jokes that in order to be fed on time he would have to paw me and lick my hand!)

I am considering ,upon my return to England,doing a degree in animal behaviour....You don't know how big a step that is for me. I left school at 15 with no more than an attitude!
I have not fully decided yet because i really do not think I would be academically bright enough to complete it but it gives me a nice feeling to think maybe ,just maybe...Also there is a two week jungle placement with Orangutangs in the 2nd year! I would die happy if i get to hold a baby Orangutang for even a minute.
They talk about modules etc don't even know what a module is (some sort of put together flat pack furniture?)God its frightening! then i think Nah, not this time around maybe next time? Though i would try harder next experience packet to become a veterinary surgeon. I console myself sometimes thinking this life packet is to prepare me for becoming one. Bit like homework i.e "Do you really really like animals for starters?" "Just how much do you love animals" etc
I have never ever had anything in my life that has affected me so much (except earning money and that all went wrong!)and just wish i had not left it so late but I suppose "better late than never"
There are very few people understand the depth of my love for animals,Tom does, he has spent hours telling and explaining to me why Racoon dogs are skinned alive(Chinese fur farms)Pigs burned alive(Mod Burns experiments) Dogs given broken limbs with no anethestic or pain relief (Medical experiments) etc etc and it still hurts so much but at least now it is made easier to understand given his explanations.(High entropy beings)
Opps gone off subject a bit,sorry! Anyway this is my definition ,or the nearest thing i can come up with to LOVE in my experience. Now if i can at some point transfer some of these feelings towards mankind i might be making progress!
Anyway from one animal lover to another thank you for doing what you did for Missy and Dyna.
Love cherie
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Re: Truth and ego

Post by sebastien »

I started reading MBT (on googlebooks, where you can actually read the entire book if you search the page number you want in the bar (I wanted to post that in the book review section but I wasn't allowed) and half way through book one I decided to buy it, and waiting for it to arrive, which takes forever since I live in Japan) and the part on the belief and ego was fascinating. I don't know if this comes up later in the book, but how do you find out if you have beliefs?
I honestly think that I dont have any strong beliefs to overcome and that I usually don't jump to conclusions very fast. Then, when I say this to myself, I wonder, is that my ego speaking?
I'm just curious
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Re: Truth and ego

Post by bette »

John and Cherie,
I am learning a new way to love, or just what love really is, since finding you all. I packed a bunch into this life for sure, and I am going to write a book because I am told I should. As you say John we almost self destructed with our challenging lives, now I am actually looking at the past as opportunities for growth rather than just struggles. That also means I must look at those involved in past hurts as required experiences and thank them for it rather than be angry. I'm still titling one chapter about my father "I'm ok, you're a jerk" though because it's fitting. Thank you for seeing growth John and for growing too, and thank you for your love of our furry friends Cherie. Sometimes even after reading Robert Monroe's books I think animals are a lot farther along than many humans with love, rather than waiting to come in as a human later they've been here and done that and now try and help us along.

sebastien, after reading the trilogy may I suggest the Robert Monroe books. See you on the other side (that's how I felt after reading everything, like I came out somerwhere different than where I went in).

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Re: Truth and ego

Post by twcjr »

sebastien,

I am on my way out of town for a few days so this will have to be very short. Most all of us are limited by many beliefs. Probably only a few of them are visible to our intellect. The rest are largely cultural -- things we assume are true without thinking or question. Even if somebody pointed out such a belief, you would not be likely to see it as a belief -- it would appear to be a fact. Also we would like to think that we have no limitations so the ego tends to justify that assumption. Getting rid of beliefs is like peeling back an onion. Until you get the outer layer peeled away the inner layer remains unseen or invisible. Then you peel that layer only to expose yet another layer that needs to be peeled. Getting rid of belief and ego is an iterative process as is growing the quality of your consciousness. As each layer is being peeled you will feel that what you are getting rid of is certainly the last of it -- it almost never is.

There are several places in these discussions where examples are discussed. I recall Mojidoji saying that he believed that he had no beliefs, and then found a bunch of them hiding in implicit assumptions about the nature of reality. I just posted something in this thread a few days ago viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2853&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a that mentioned some examples of hidden beliefs.

Tom C



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