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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:24 am 
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I'm trying to remember why we need PMR experience. I thought I knew, but I seem to have forgotten!
What brought this on:
Reading about NDErs who say their minds expanded, they knew "everything" (or all their questions were answered), they experienced much more love and bliss.

Furthermore, NDErs often retain some of their understanding in the form of psi abilities they didn't have before -these help them cope and enrich their lives.

If the brain constrains our understanding, how can it profit consciousness to restrict itself in PMR? What is the point? There obviously must be one, because NDErs are obliged to return to PMR (sometimes against their will). Is there a definitive answer to this?

MBT states that interaction with others in PMR helps us to increase the scope and quality of our intent. PMR is supposed to give us instant feedback. How is this so? For example, I'm rarely able to predict the effect I have on others, and it is obvious they often can't predict the effect they have on me. I feel like a useless pawn. Am I alone in this? Reading peoples' minds (NPMR telepathy) would be advantageous!

If the increased knowledge, abilities and love in NPMR are available to everyone, why not all stay in NPMR? How exactly does PMR experience add value to the process?

You probably think I'm being obtuse. But I really want to know! Any experts out there?


Last edited by rossw on Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:02 am 
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rossw,

I am not trying for a definitive answer here. I am just correcting or adding to some things you said and hopefully this will permit you to work out an answer for yourself.

The insights from NDEs are to some degree like the nature of a dream. You can feel like you knew or experienced a great deal that you can no longer remember. This is more a feeling than a reality. When you don't clearly remember something, it is very easy to exaggerate the worth of what you have lost. Almost universally, people feel that things were better when they were children than when they are elderly. It was somehow idyllic then. The world is perpetually coming apart, the end is nigh, Armageddon around the corner.

Yes, you can come back with psi type abilities that you were not aware of before. You loose some of the constraints of the PMR rule set. The box you live in gets bigger.

The PMR VR brain does not constrain our understanding. The PMR VR brain represents a feed back, when someone is in a position to examine it in some way, from our actual mind in Consciousness Space.

The PMR VR is much more intense than the VR of NPMR. Things happen much faster and are much more intense. You can get killed or badly hurt 'out there'. Instant is a relative term, despite semantics, when things happen much more slowly in NPMR than PMR. Why would you think that the effect you have on others and vice versa is readily discernible there in NPMR while not here in PMR? Telepathy, as we apply the term to communication there compared to here, does not mean that you can just reach out and take what you want in the way of knowledge or information from another. Communication and the VR experience still comes to you over the RWW network. You cannot receive what another does not willingly send to you and the VRRE pass through to you. There is still a limiting rule set, just a different one.

Consider the set up as a whole. NPMR is both a place where we assimilate what we learn on our trips into PMR and is required as a service function to provide the guidance to get us through a PMR experience optimally. Guidance must be provided by an IUOC at a slightly higher level than the subject IUOC. Not every IUOC is capable and qualified to do this work so there is a scarcity of this resource. PMR and NPMR are separate but designed to operate as an integral whole to produce the developmental effect. You get more benefit from this set up than from what would result if there were no PMR in the set with only NPMR and it's much more relaxed interactions.

Not obtuse at all. A good question with a slightly deeper answer. Perhaps Tom will add more.

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:08 am 
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Thanks Ted - I would like to comment further on some of your points:

Ted said:
Almost universally, people feel that things were better when they were children than when they are elderly. It was somehow idyllic then. The world is perpetually coming apart, the end is nigh, Armageddon around the corner.


Ross says:
If this is so (and I probably agree), we do not appear to be gaining in understanding as we get older. If we are not gaining in understanding, our QoC is not improving, is it? If it's not improving, is it any wonder than I question the validity of PMR experience?

Ted said:
The PMR VR brain does not constrain our understanding. The PMR VR brain represents a feed back, when someone is in a position to examine it in some way, from our actual mind in Consciousness Space.


Ross says:
If I understand this correctly, you are implying that our role here is to experience, not to understand. Understanding comes later in NPMR. Fair enough, but lack of understanding makes it difficult to choose wisely in PMR, does it not? It also makes one feel rather powerless (and pissed off!).

Ted said:
"The PMR VR is much more intense than the VR of NPMR. Things happen much faster and are much more intense. You can get killed or badly hurt 'out there'. Instant is a relative term, despite semantics, when things happen much more slowly in NPMR than PMR. Why would you think that the effect you have on others and vice versa is readily discernible there in NPMR while not here in PMR? Telepathy, as we apply the term to communication there compared to here, does not mean that you can just reach out and take what you want in the way of knowledge or information from another. Communication and the VR experience still comes to you over the RWW network. You cannot receive what another does not willingly send to you and the VRRE pass through to you. There is still a limiting rule set, just a different one.


Ross says:
This is not quite in keeping with some of the NDEs I have read. Knowledge in NPMR is readily available and it is supposedly easier to share a fact or a feeling than it is to conceal it (I think Newton also said this). I obviously agree that PMR is a place where you can get hurt, but if the main reason to be here is to feel pain, then this only really makes sense if we understand why pain is a good teacher. I'm afraid I don't have that understanding. Pain often twists the mind; it rarely improves our ability to be rational.

Ted said:
Consider the set up as a whole. NPMR is both a place where we assimilate what we learn on our trips into PMR and is required as a service function to provide the guidance to get us through a PMR experience optimally. Guidance must be provided by an IUOC at a slightly higher level than the subject IUOC. Not every IUOC is capable and qualified to do this work so there is a scarcity of this resource.


Ross says:
This makes sense to me, but NDEs and MBT suggest there is a ‘higher self' which knows a lot more than the fragments which incarnate. If it knows more, it sounds like it's sending li'l ol' us to do its dirty work. I would really like to know what specifically it seeks to learn that it doesn't know already or couldn't find out by asking nicely in NPMR or accessing a database. As I understand it, we can enter into an environment in NPMR as if we are actually ‘there'. Knowing it's ‘not real' might take some of the PMR sense of urgency away, but then again, it may not -look how worked up people get when they are playing games or ‘supporting' their favourite sporting team! Also, I suggest the extra built-in empathy available in NPMR could make up for any lack of gritty, physical involvement.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:59 am 
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My (non-expert) take:

It's easier to learn stuff here because of the relatively intense, exclusive focus.

As in, when someone is trying to explain something to you and you just aren't getting it, and finally they say "Lookit. You want me to draw you a picture??"

PMR is that "picture". ...that momentary intense focus, relative to the NPMR worlds.

Just my current understanding,
-Montana


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:39 am 
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Quote:
This makes sense to me, but NDEs and MBT suggest there is a ‘higher self' which knows a lot more than the fragments which incarnate. If it knows more, it sounds like it's sending li'l ol' us to do its dirty work. I would really like to know what specifically it seeks to learn that it doesn't know already or couldn't find out by asking nicely in NPMR or accessing a database. As I understand it, we can enter into an environment in NPMR as if we are actually ‘there'. Knowing it's ‘not real' might take some of the PMR sense of urgency away, but then again, it may not -look how worked up people get when they are playing games or ‘supporting' their favorite sporting team! Also, I suggest the extra built-in empathy available in NPMR could make up for any lack of gritty, physical involvement.
We are our 'higher self'. We are a part of it, and we are more than only a part of it. Each single incarnation has not been separated and thrown to a deep muddy water of PMR to straggle and do a dirty work for HS. I have no proof to present here, but I am getting more aware (HS, or guides, or Consciousness show to me that I am not alone, even at the time when I am lonely or feel emptiness anywhere I turn) that there is no small me here and big HS there. We are here to learn who are we (small me and big HS, since we are one), not on a grandiose scale - how important we are, but our fears, needs, our good and bad sides as they are, not as we wish them to be. We are here to become aware of feelings, shake off our belief, which holding us back on our path, learn do not compare myself and whatever I was able to achieve to anybody else and their achievements, do our part in reducing our entropy, and as a result HS entropy. I am here to do my best, I hope, and it takes some effort on my part as well. I am not the best or brightest incarnation of me, my HS, I am one of many, who are One. I am aware of that on subconscious level, in my feelings, otherwise I don't have a direct experience.

Lena

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:07 am 
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Ok - This will be kind of a long Seth excerpt, but I just so impressed by (what I feel) are major similarities between the following ideas and the MBT model. I think this sheds a little light on the process whereby we experience this and other reality systems, and also ties into some of the responses already given here. -->
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The probable realities connected with your own system are like the suburbs, say, surrounding a main city. If for simplicity's sake you think of other realities as different cities, then after you leave your own you would pass through the suburbs, then into the country, then after a time into other suburbs until you reached another metropolis. Here each metropolis would represent a conglomeration of consciousnesses operating within an overall general frequency of clearest focus, a high point of psychic communication and exquisite focus in the given kind of reality. Unless you are tuned in to those particular frequencies, however, you could not pick up that reality. You might instead perceive the equivalent of jumbled sound or meaningless static, or jigsaw images. You might simply realize that some kind of activity was there, but without being able to pinpoint it.

Now all consciousness, including your own, is highly mobile. While you focus your attention primarily in your own world, certain portions of your consciousness are always straying. When you are sleeping, then, your consciousness often ventures into other realities, usually in a wandering fashion without tuning itself in to any precise frequencies. Beneath many seemingly chaotic dreams there are often valid experiences in which your consciousness "lights" in another reality, without being attuned to it with the necessary precision that would allow for clear perception. The information cannot be sifted or used effectively and is translated into dream images, as your consciousness returns toward your own home station. Therefore, it has been difficult to achieve any kind of clear picture of such other realities.

Certain particular focuses then bring in different worlds, but unless your consciousness is tuned in with exquisite precision you will not be able to perceive dearly. You will instead pick up at best the ghost images, probabilities, and private data that are not officially recognized as part of the main reality's official structure of events.

Basically, consciousness is freewheeling. Such realities therefore always exist-in your own psyche-outside of your "home station, " and some portion of your own consciousness is always involved in them. Period. There are bleedthroughs, so to speak, in the form of unofficial perceptions that often occur, or "impossible" events that are seemingly beyond explanation. For now think of your own psyche, which is a consciousized identity, as a kind of "supernatural radio." All of the stations exist at once within the psyche. These do not come through with sound alone, but with all the living paraphernalia of the world. The "you" that you recognize is but one signal on one such station, tuned in to a certain frequency, experiencing that station's overall reality from your own viewpoint-one that is unique and like no other, and yet contributing to the whole life of the station.

(Smile:) The supernatural radio that is your entire psyche contains many such stations, however. These are all playing at the same time. It would be highly confusing in this analogy to experience or hear all of these at once, however, so different portions of the psyche tune in to different stations, concentrate upon them, and tune out the others for immediate practical purposes. Because these stations all operate within the same psyche or supernatural radio, the overall quality of the programs will have much to do with the nature of the psyche itself. Radios are wired and contain transformers and transistors. The overall reception is dependent upon the wiring and the inner workings of the radio-and (intently) those workings exist apart from the stations they are meant to pick up. In the same way, the "supernatural psyche" exists apart from the stations of consciousness that it contains. In this case indeed the psyche itself makes the radio, adding ever-new connections and stations
-Seth, Session 711



Cole

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:21 am 
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Quote:
Thanks Ted - I would like to comment further on some of your points:

Ted said:
Almost universally, people feel that things were better when they were children than when they are elderly. It was somehow idyllic then. The world is perpetually coming apart, the end is nigh, Armageddon around the corner.


Ross says:
If this is so (and I probably agree), we do not appear to be gaining in understanding as we get older. If we are not gaining in understanding, our QoC is not improving, is it? If it's not improving, is it any wonder than I question the validity of PMR experience?

Ted adds: Almost universally, not universally. And here in the MBT forums you are trying to get past this. The improvement of the QOC occurs automatically and within your total/higher self. The PMR experience is the catalyst for this development.

Ted said:
The PMR VR brain does not constrain our understanding. The PMR VR brain represents a feed back, when someone is in a position to examine it in some way, from our actual mind in Consciousness Space.


Ross says:
If I understand this correctly, you are implying that our role here is to experience, not to understand. Understanding comes later in NPMR. Fair enough, but lack of understanding makes it difficult to choose wisely in PMR, does it not? It also makes one feel rather powerless (and pissed off!).

Ted adds: Understanding comes when, and if, it comes. Here now or in NPMR later. Assimilation and integration as required occurs within NPMR. And understanding based upon experience simply cannot be had without first having had the experience. Be reasonable in you thinking. Powerless and 'pissed off' is an unreasonable reaction to not being able to have the cart before the horse that draws it.

Ted said:
"The PMR VR is much more intense than the VR of NPMR. Things happen much faster and are much more intense. You can get killed or badly hurt 'out there'. Instant is a relative term, despite semantics, when things happen much more slowly in NPMR than PMR. Why would you think that the effect you have on others and vice versa is readily discernible there in NPMR while not here in PMR? Telepathy, as we apply the term to communication there compared to here, does not mean that you can just reach out and take what you want in the way of knowledge or information from another. Communication and the VR experience still comes to you over the RWW network. You cannot receive what another does not willingly send to you and the VRRE pass through to you. There is still a limiting rule set, just a different one.


Ross says:
This is not quite in keeping with some of the NDEs I have read. Knowledge in NPMR is readily available and it is supposedly easier to share a fact or a feeling than it is to conceal it (I think Newton also said this). I obviously agree that PMR is a place where you can get hurt, but if the main reason to be here is to feel pain, then this only really makes sense if we understand why pain is a good teacher. I'm afraid I don't have that understanding. Pain often twists the mind; it rarely improves our ability to be rational.

Ted reiterates and adds: You still cannot just reach out and 'take' facts and feelings. You certainly cannot do that with understanding. That it is easier in NPMR to share information does not automatically make everyone equal in understanding. You must develop the understanding, not take it. That takes the training of PMR experience or some other experience and experience of interactions is much more readily obtainable in the designated training lab of PMR than elsewhere.

Ted said:
Consider the set up as a whole. NPMR is both a place where we assimilate what we learn on our trips into PMR and is required as a service function to provide the guidance to get us through a PMR experience optimally. Guidance must be provided by an IUOC at a slightly higher level than the subject IUOC. Not every IUOC is capable and qualified to do this work so there is a scarcity of this resource.


Ross says:
This makes sense to me, but NDEs and MBT suggest there is a ‘higher self' which knows a lot more than the fragments which incarnate. If it knows more, it sounds like it's sending li'l ol' us to do its dirty work. I would really like to know what specifically it seeks to learn that it doesn't know already or couldn't find out by asking nicely in NPMR or accessing a database. As I understand it, we can enter into an environment in NPMR as if we are actually ‘there'. Knowing it's ‘not real' might take some of the PMR sense of urgency away, but then again, it may not -look how worked up people get when they are playing games or ‘supporting' their favourite sporting team! Also, I suggest the extra built-in empathy available in NPMR could make up for any lack of gritty, physical involvement.
Ted explains: Sorry about that chief, but you are your higher self with the addition of the PMR rule set and appropriate restrictions that make for your PMR experience. I just made another post that I will link in here before I am finished that might make how this occurs more clear to you. viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3904 The experience of The One Consciousness over vastly many PMRs and vastly many experiences of IUOCs says that you are wrong or it would not have set up this PMR in this way.

Hope this helps more than it 'pisses you off'.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:16 am 
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It's not you that pisses me off, Ted, it's the lack of understanding of what my Higher Self expects of me.

And this is a good example of the misunderstanding generated in PMR. The "pissed off" was meant to be a bit tongue in cheek (though perhaps never a truer word than spoken in jest). I still think -based on personal experience- that PMR is grossly inefficient.


Last edited by rossw on Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:28 am 
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Ted, you really please that Armageddon is right around the corner? That's one thing that I personally don't agree with. I know that the Bible says it's so, but I only subscribe to certain parts of the bible, and IF Armageddon DOES happen, I don't believe that it's right around the corner. Although lots of doomers and gloomers have been saying that for the last few decades.... I don't believe Tom believes this either with MBT, although he says that we CAN self-destruct if we aren't careful, so we need to make better decisions.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:06 am 
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Ted, you really please that Armageddon is right around the corner? That's one thing that I personally don't agree with. I know that the Bible says it's so, but I only subscribe to certain parts of the bible, and IF Armageddon DOES happen, I don't believe that it's right around the corner. Although lots of doomers and gloomers have been saying that for the last few decades.... I don't believe Tom believes this either with MBT, although he says that we CAN self-destruct if we aren't careful, so we need to make better decisions.
I don't think he means that, but as in people feel that the world is falling apart, a general feeling of some people.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:55 am 
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Ted adds: Almost universally, not universally. And here in the MBT forums you are trying to get past this. The improvement of the QOC occurs automatically and within your total/higher self. The PMR experience is the catalyst for this development.
Hi Ted: I agree that it occurs within your total/higher self, but that the improvement of the QoC occurs automatically? I think you mean that the system is so well design and maintained that it helps on that, but it's up to each individual IUOC to improve his/her/its QoC. Just by being in PMR and going with the flow or against the flow does not guarantee a higher QoC. A higher QoC can be obtained for example by recognizing and changing the handling of fear, ego and love.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:30 am 
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Claudio,

Yes, as a programmer where you can take no shortcuts in your coding, you are correct. I was being a little sloppy and generalizing in my statement. The change in QOC occurs automatically and within your total/higher self. The change will be appropriate to whether your interactions were appropriate creating improvement or inappropriate creating degradation. Since the concept of neural networks as expressed in PMR digital computers has been introduced, I have mentally added them to my model and think of their 'training' by virtue of our experience here in the PMR VR as automatically resulting in the creation of improvement (hopefully) or degeneration. A neural network as I understand it's characteristics would explain how the training received within a session in PMR, a lifetime, can automatically improve the quality of your being. Also how a training session with negative consequences, although detrimental, would not automatically erase all your past history of development from previous lives with quality, positive results. This to me makes a valuable detail of explanation added to the basic PMR model by explaining how this can work, how it can be visualized and understood based upon things understandable and observable within the PMR reality.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:31 am 
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Hello Ted:

Being a programmer is irrelevant to my comment. I am not just a programmer. I can multitask and programming is just one of my tasks.
I don't think the word "automatically" and "evolution" go quite well together because the first one implies no personal effort. I know you understand this but I think tend to have a difference in perspective of spiritual evolution. Tell me if I am wrong.

I think this is your order of importance:

1. RWW and PMR interactions. 2. IUOC Intent

Mine is more like this:

1. IUOC Intent, 2. RWW and PMR interactions

where the "automatically" is not as important as the "personal" and where we can control and change 1. We cannot control as much RWW and our PMR input.

We change for the better what we can and for what we cannot change we try to "Take it easy" and "Accept". This way we can lower our entropies.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:57 am 
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what we cannot change we try to "Take it easy" and "Accept".
The statement of a young idealist. Good on you, Claudio. Try seeing it that way in 25 years time.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:15 pm 
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Rossw:

If you think you cannot do something you most probably won't be able to do it.

Age is an illusion. You can let the game play you or you can play the game. If you don't put limits on yourself (I am not talking about physical limits, off course you cannot perform sports like young people) you can achieve unimaginable things. I go to the gym and I keep increasing the weights I use. It doesn't make sense. I thought I cannot work with higher weights than when I was younger, but I do. I don't know if it is because I use the psi-uncertainty principle and NPMR, but it happens. I see that I get more if I don't put certain limits on myself. Off course I take care of my health and stuff but I don't agree with people that say they cannot do this or that or cannot improve this or that because they are old, or this or that. It's not so much about how you are or what state you are, but what you think you could possibly achieve.

If you want to lower your entropy at your best, don't put negative limits on yourself. Keep thinking that you can always lower your entropy, no matter how much immerse you are in this PMR and this "aging illusion". No matter how old you are you can always go to NPMR and fly and imagine anything you want to do and do it and you will feel better than you felt when you were a kid. For example I enjoy in NPMR skating, surfing, etc. and I can skate with shoes and I can surf on top of a pork, or emulate the "Silver Surfer" of Fantastic Four. You won't be able to emulate "Silver Surfer" if you think or believe you can't.


Claudio

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