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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:08 am 
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Hi Everyone,

Why do around 20% of people dream in black and white or with very little colour and others dream in such vivid colour?

Aren't we all accessing the same dream reality frame?

Why would there be such a large amount of people whose consciousness interpret the dream reality frame this way?

Steve.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:17 am 
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Why would there be such a large amount of people whose consciousness interpret the dream reality frame this way?
Because in their last experience packet they were dogs.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:25 am 
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Steve,

We are all accessing the dream reality frame but it's not physical vision we are using to interpret the data. Something in them is causing them to interpret it in black and white.

I wonder how the statistics reflect age on this. My reasoning is that maybe people who grew up watching TV in black and white are more likely to interpret the data that way.

Interesting question.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:53 am 
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I have some dreams in black and white and others in vivid color.

I tend to think of the black and white dreams as not very important. The color ones are the ones that usually have a deeper message or meaning for me.

It should be noted that I have not read the books (only watched the videos) so I don't know the context of dreaming in MBT.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:11 am 
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I checked and it is true that older people who grew up with black and white tv do dream in black and white (people 55 and older - close to 70%!)

The younger generation and more current statistic places the statistic of black and white around 20%

However, it doesn't make any sense to me why tv or film in black and white would make any difference. After all, these same people still see in colour everyday. (or are getting the experience of visual sight, to be more specific)

So, i believe it is something else. Like Ramon suggested.

We could go even further and ask why some people have very little dream experience at all, as opposed to those who dream everynight and can remember their dreams and even have lucid dreams.

Perhaps, it has to do with the quality of one's consciouness in general.

Would a lower entropy consciousness necessarily be able to access the dream reality frame any more efficiently vs a higher entropy one?

Is this AUM via "guides" at work? After all we don't consciously chose what we dream. Maybe our "guides" decide when we are ready for a richer, more vivid or realistic dream experience. Alot of our dreams do seem to be lessons in some way.

Steve

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:43 am 
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Hey everyone! I've got a real treat here for any Seth fans, and those interested in making the connections between MBT and "Channeled" material. I recently purchased a book of Jane Roberts' that had gone out of print for quite some time, and wasn't even discovered (by Rob) in manuscript form until after she had passed. Nonetheless, the book is called "Seth, Dreams, and Projections of Consciousness." In it are many passages from Seth describing the importance and influence our dreams have. As well as techniques for lucid dreaming and other useful material.

One passage, which is rather long looking at it now- seemed very relevent to the MBT forum and I think that most can appreciate its value in making these connections between 'models.'

Seth, in "Seth, Dreams, and Projections of Consciousness"...

Quote:
You will sometimes automatically translate this [dream] reality into physical terms. Such images will be hallucinatory, but it may take awhile for you to distinguish their true nature. It must be understood, however, that all physical objects are hallucinatory. They may be called mass hallucinations.

There is constant translation of inner reality into objects in the waking state and a constant tranlation of ideas into pseudo-objects in the dream state. Within a certain range of dream reality, ideas and thoughts can be translated into pseudo-objects and transported. This is what happens when you adobt a pseudo-form in projection, though I am simplifying this considerably.

When you travel beyond a certain range of intensities, even psuedo-images must vanish. They exist in a cluster about, and connected to, your own system. The lack of these, obviously, means that you have gone beyond your own camouflage system. If it were possible, you would then travel through a range of intensities in which no camouflage existed. Then you would encounter the pseudo-camouflage of the next system. This would or would not be physical matter, according to the system. You would then encounter the heart of the camouflage area. The completely uncamouflaged areas at the outer edges of the various systems should remind you of the undifferentiated areas between various life cycles in the subconscious. This is no coincidence.

As a rule, you see, there is little communication within the uncamouflaged areas. They act as boundaries, even while they represent the basic stuff of which all camouflage is composed. (Without the camouflage, you would perceive nothing with the physical senses.)


The sentence is really meaningless, however, because the physical senses are themselves camouflage. There would be nothing to translate. It is only the inner senses that will allow you to perceive under these circumstances. Theoretically, if you can bridge the gap between various reincarnations, then you can bridge the gap between your system and another.

Once more: The undifferentiated layers are composed of the vitality that forms the camouflage of all systems. Such an area is not really a thing in itself, but a portion of vitality that contains no camouflage, and is therefore unrecognizable to those within any given system. You are in touch with "infinity" in such areas, since it is only camouflage that gives you the conception of time...

Now, during some projections, you may be aware of nothing as far as surroundings are concerned. There will only be the mobility of your own consciousness. If this occurs, you will be traveling through such an uncamouflaged area. You could then expect to encounter next a more differentiated environment, that seems to become clearer as you progress toward the heart of another system.

The completely uncamouflaged layer would be rather bewildering. You might automatically be tempted to project images into it. They would not take, so to speak, but would appear and disappear with great rapidity. This is a silent area. Thoughts would not be perceived here, as a rule, for the symbols for them would not be understood.

If a certain intensity is reached, however- a peak of intensity - then you could perceive the spacious present as it exists within your native system. You could, from this peak, look into other systems, but you would not understand what you perceived, not having the proper root assumptions. I have used the idea of neighboring systems for simplicity's sake, as if they were laid end to end. Obviously, such is not the case. The systems [of reality] are more like the various segments of a tangerine, with the uncamouflaged boundary areas like the white membrane between the tangerine sections.

The tangerine, then, would be compared to a group of many systems, yet it would represent in itself but one portion of an unperceived whole. The tangerine would be but one segment of a larger system. You can see, then, why some projections would lead you in a far different direction from your linear sort of travel and why time as you know it would be meaningless.

Nor do such projections necessarily involve journeys through space as you know it. There are systems, vivid in intensity, that have no existence in physical reality at all. It is now thought, I believe, that time and space are basically one, but they are both a part of something else. They are merely the camouflage patterns by which you perceive reality. Space as you perceive it in the dream state comes much closer to the reality.

Projections within your own system will, of course, involve you with some kind of camouflage. If none is present, you will know you are out of the system. The dream universe is obviously closely connected with your own, since pseudo-objects are present. Even there, you are to some extent free from the space-time elements of your own system. Within the dream state, then, you are in the "outward" areas of the physically oriented universe.

One point: There are other systems all about and within your own. The undifferentiated areas move out like spirals, through all reality. Little resistence is encountered within them. They represent inner roads that connect systems, as well as divide them. The traveler must leave his own camouflage paraphernalia behind him, however, or he will get nowhere.

It is possible, theoretically, to travel to any system in this manner and bypass other, you see. Such a traveler would not age physically. His body would be in a suspended state. Only a very few individuals have traveled in this manner. Most of the knowledge gained escapes the ego, and the experiences cannot be translated by the physical brain.

However, it is possible to travel under such circumstances, and some of the data would be retained by inner portions of the self. In a creative individual, some of this information might be symbolically expressed in a painting or other work of art.

Each brushstroke of a painting represents concentrated experience and compressed perceptions. In a good painting, these almost explode when perceived by the lively consciousness of another. The observer is washed over by intensities. The excellent work of art recreates for the observer inner experiences of his own, also, of which he has never been aware. As you know, paintings have motion, yet the painting itself does not move. This idea should help you understand experience in terms of intensities and projections or the movement of consciousness without necessarily motion through space.

True motion has nothing to do with space. The only real motion is that of the traveling consciousness.

Now go back and re-read some of that, placing "virtual" in there in place of "camouflage." :) Not a perfect fit in ALL instances, but you get the idea. Since this is pretty lesser known Seth material I ended up typing a lot of it up, just so that the data is here, safe and sound (relatively speaking) for others to see if they are so attracted.


Cole

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Steve,

My understanding has it as a result of three things:

1) The amount of awareness that the dreamer is "bringing to the table" is one: The less there is, the less a consciousness is going to experience the detail or nature of anything, awake or asleep.

2) A lot of dream processing, for a lot of people a lot of the time, happens at a semi-conscious or unconscious level. Think about your own awareness of your beating heart... it is like that... largely unconscious unless something unusual is happening, or you are directing an unusual amount of attention to the process.

So, semiconscious processing can sort of feel like the dreaming is in "black and white", or more in tune with my experience of this, grayish filmy, or just vaguely physical, with only hints of structure.

If you watch the falling asleep process, as you go, you can actually watch dreams begin to form, spinning themselves up out of nothing except to follow the patterns stirring in the bottom of your own being.

3) There is also a matter of expectation: Before the invention of photography, few people thought about "Black and white" versus color ( I am assuming, I should say). Why would they?

All just my current understanding,
-Montana


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:27 pm 
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Hi guys:

I don't recall any black & white dreams. I think I only do it with colors.

Now. I practice sometimes "visualization". I practice both with eyes opened and eyes closed. With eyes opened color management is not as easy as with eyes closed. I can visualize objects in just one color or grays, let's say. I was thinking for those who tend to dream with not too much color if practicing visualization with lots of colors with eyes closed may help them gain more color intensity in dreams.

By the way, besides practicing meditation, OBEs, etc. any of you guys practice visualizations? I had conversations with other people and I notice some people can visualize certain things easier than others. For me it is weird, because I can visualize complex things pretty easy (landscapes, animations, cities, etc.) while visualizing simple things is more difficult to me. I am now practicing more with simple stuff like numbers, letters, pure colors, because that is what is more difficult for me. I am amazed when Tom said he was debugging code. He may have written his book in NPMR :). My daughter for example can do certain mathematical operations better than me. I am making some improvements though by practicing painting the numbers or letters one after the other one.

Some people may think what is this guy talking about?, but for the ones that practice this stuff I would like to hear some comments. Sometimes I started OBEs using visualizations. I visualize animated backgrounds and then "jump" into them. Once in NPMR state then I can keep simple objects in my mind easier, but not before I reach that, but I am practicing to improve this while still in PMR.

Claudio

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:39 pm 
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As I understand sensory modalities in dream consciousness frame they all work even if they do not work in PMR consciousness frame, for instance a blind person "sees" in their dreams, a color-blind person sees color, a deaf person "hears", and a little further out in left field perhaps a person with autism communicates effectively with others.

Cole Seth's camouflage metaphor is generated by Ted's VRRE, that's what came to me anyway.

Here is a dream my 6 year-old niece told me the other day when I asked her if she had had any good dreams lately. She said, "Well, yes I have. I dreamed I was little like a bug and I was on a leaf. There was a Free Horn dinosaur and he wanted to eat the leaf I was on, so he came over and scooped me up with his horn and put my on the other leaf, then he ate the leaf I had been on." I love asking kids that dream questio. I also ask even younger babies, once I have made nice with the mom or dad, how it's going so far, is it like you thought it would be? More often than not they suddenly get much more interested in me, then I say something about it looking like they picked a good mom or dad, and am off on my way, this is also fun for me, although I am easily amused.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:21 pm 
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Cole,

That's a very interesting Seth passage you posted. The more I read of Seth, the more I see largely the same framework Tom is talking about, just communicated in Seth's terms as communicated by Jane. Like Tom says, "Truth is not fragile."

I think this camouflage could also be similar to our belief systems and expectations created from existing within this PMR. Our beliefs and expectations create the camouflage out of the data. In order to truly get out of our system entirely you must drop all belief and expectation in order to start tuning into the reality framework of another system. When we gain the awareness to move beyond PMR we still interpret the data in terms of this framework. "Pseudo-camouflage" in other terms. This is what we experience in dreams, normal OBEs and after death. To actually get out of OS (Our System) and experience other NPMRs and PMRs we must drop this framework entirely and be open to inserting our pure awareness into another framework. That makes complete sense to me.

Steve,

Thanks for checking those facts. It was more of an intuitional idea I had and it's nice to see there was an actual correlation. Thanks!

Ramon


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:48 am 
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Steve do they say anything about hearing? Wonder if those that see in black and white hear more than those that see color.

Being a visual thinker I tend to translate most input into visual expression via the minds eye. When my friend tells me of his sexual exploits with his girlfriend it's automatically "displayed" in the minds eye, and I'm like "turn it off! turn it off!". Dreams can consist of taste and smell (very rarely), sound and touch (rare), but mostly consist of visual objects (for me). Would think most dreams consist of both gray (black and white), and color elements. These dreams don't seem to be shared with others, but are private. As such the data is limited for the experience. For example I may be driving down the a city street on a motorcycle. Everything is gray, except for a red light. The color of the red light holds meaning wile the rest of the environment doesn't, in other words it simply doesn't need to. There are other times when it's in full color. That may be do to habitual PMR experince, or it may be a shared VR like the NPMR ocean/lake resort that I visit. Tom does explain, somewhere, that the VRRE saves processing power by not rendering everything into full detail. Info that isn't significant isn't rendered.

On the other hand those that see in black and white may rely on sound for their primary sensory input, but I don't have any data on that.

Off Topic: In a dream there was water coming out of the palms of my hands. Any one have an idea what that means if anything?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:32 am 
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Tom does explain, somewhere, that the VRRE saves processing power by not rendering everything into full detail. Info that isn't significant isn't rendered.
Hi Shinoki:

Form my experience, the rendering in NPMR depends on your attitude, your curiosity, your intent, and also on the relevant data. If something draws your attention then you see more detail on that. You can see as much detail as the data available behind that piece of reality and the satisfaction of your intent (you are satisfied and you don't need further details). You are the one asking and the answers can be as detailed as the data available and also as detailed as the imagination of the participants (including yourself).

Claudio

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:29 am 
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I think this camouflage could also be similar to our belief systems and expectations created from existing within this PMR.
Hi Ramon,
I was thinking of the camouflage metaphor AS this PMR that the VRRE generates. We are wearing the camouflage, living in it, like that.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:19 pm 
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I cannot recall if my dreams have any colors, or they are black and white. For many years I see dreams very seldom. On the other hand many times I would wake up with a feeling that I was seeing or doing something important in my sleep. What? I don't know.

Lena

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:39 pm 
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I cannot recall if my dreams have any colors, or they are black and white. For many years I see dreams very seldom. On the other hand many times I would wake up with a feeling that I was seeing or doing something important in my sleep. What? I don't know.

Lena
Hi Lena:

What's happening? Hope everything good. Have you ever practiced visualization? See my post above regarding them. I think if you practice that you may recall them better and remember the colors. Almost everything is possible. I get back to dreams I had several years ago. Never underestimate the powers of an IUOC. You got the power.

Claudio (powered by MBT :)

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