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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 8:57 pm 
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"Scientists at the J. Craig Venter Institute ... announced, they had created "synthetic life" -- DNA created digitally, inserted into a living bacterium, and remaining alive."

Video and links here:

http://www.ted.com/talks/craig_venter_u ... _life.html

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:21 am 
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"Scientists at the J. Craig Venter Institute ... announced, they had created "synthetic life" -- DNA created digitally, inserted into a living bacterium, and remaining alive."

Video and links here:

http://www.ted.com/talks/craig_venter_u ... _life.html
Hello,

I've read an article a couple of days ago. As a matter of fact the title is quite sensational and smashing, but in reality, the DNA sequence was created, not life itself since the bacteria had already been there in the first place. In my humble opinion this is closer to cloning, than creating. Indeed, if the artificial DNA is imitated from the data of already existing DNA, the term "creation" is inapropriate as opposed to the term "imitation".


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:28 am 
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Yes, it's not creation. Consciousness is though.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:01 am 
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Yes, it's not creation. Consciousness is though.
Yes, creating consciousness synthetically would be more spectacular news, I would be spectackled for sure, as would Claudio, I'd bet (if I was a betting person).
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:54 am 
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To All,

When they claim to have created consciousness, remember that they have not. They will have created an adequate semblance of a container of consciousness which will then be used by an IUOC as a 'shell' for a PMR experience packet. A connection will be made and input created to link to that IUOC as it exists on the RWW, however limited it is, and provide appropriate input to represent its PMR experience.

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Yes, it's not creation. Consciousness is though.
Yes, creating consciousness synthetically would be more spectacular news, I would be spectackled for sure, as would Claudio, I'd bet (if I was a betting person).
Love
Bette
Funny. Well, wouldn't that be kinda like the creation of AI guy (cited in MBT trilogy)? The AI guy can also be a synthetic bacteria, right? Anything wrong with it? Could we also create an AI guy that is a biological computer that can develop awareness?

Claudio

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Last edited by soprano on Mon May 24, 2010 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:46 pm 
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To All,

When they claim to have created consciousness, remember that they have not. They will have created an adequate semblance of a container of consciousness which will then be used by an IUOC as a 'shell' for a PMR experience packet. A connection will be made and input created to link to that IUOC as it exists on the RWW, however limited it is, and provide appropriate input to represent its PMR experience.

Ted
Hello Ted:

I think I saw similar posts from you like this. Are you suggesting it is impossible to create an IUOC in a PMR environment? What about the creation of an AI guy. Do you think that the AI guy created will be "managed" by an external IUOC that it is brought in at a certain time?

After reading MBT and thinking about it, I now think that the development of a human from the fetus on is a parallel process both in PMR and NPMR all the way, instead of preparing a non-conscious body and then bringing the IUOC. It makes more sense to me that it is a joint process. I don't know if Tom ever described this. IMO there is always a constant relationship between the PMR aspect and the NPMR aspect.

Also, if IUOCs (in a proto state) can be created in NPMR, I don't see why not there can be also created in parallel in a VR like PMR. It would be like a Pinocchio. Isn't strong Intent the basis of it?

Isn't the container and the IUOC both data, both made from the same substance we called Consciousness?

Claudio

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Quote:
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Yes, it's not creation. Consciousness is though.
Yes, creating consciousness synthetically would be more spectacular news, I would be spectackled for sure, as would Claudio, I'd bet (if I was a betting person).
Love
Bette
Funny. Well, wouldn't that be kinda like the creation of AI guy (cited in MBT trilogy)? The AI guy can also be a synthetic bacteria, right? Anything wrong with it? Could we also create an AI guy that is a biological computer that can develop awareness?

Claudio
I would say that you would say that we could, or did, or are. I don't know enough about that to know. You tell me, maybe.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Claudio,

Do you remember Tom's original assumptions of reality cells which can be perturbed or unperturbed, representing 1's or 0's. Then the next assumption was the evolution of the patterns within these cells until at some point it boot straps into Consciousness. Left a lot of blanks in the description (and I am leaving even more) but he did say that this is Consciousness Space and that IUOCs were created within that space and allowed a degree of consciousness to develop greater QOC and reduce entropy as the method for developing the QOC and reducing the entropy of CS itself. Those IUOCs existing on the RWW are the consciousnesses which participate in the VR experiences. Whatever is experienced within a VR experience packet is the perception of an incoming data stream over the RWW coming from TBC (tweaked by the VRRE to personalize the input) by one of those IUOCs. That is by me and thee and Tom, Dick and Harry and all the critters and those above us up the ladder.

If an IUOC experiences itself in PMR as Joe Scientist who develops what he thinks is an artificial consciousness, then Joe Scientist is the virtual self of that IUOC. The IUOC thinks and sees himself as Joe S. as doing, participating in the creation of a new consciousness, so he thinks. But the IUOCs exist within CS itself, not in the VR. So if the shell that represents an adequate 'host' for a consciousness is produced within the VR, then a real consciousness, an IUOC, from CS steps into the picture and is hooked up from TBC via the RWW to function as the mind, the experiencer, of that virtual self. Yes I have said this numerous times and it is not my invention, but rather Tom's. Think it through one more time and see if I got the words right for you this time around.

Yes, both the mind in CS and the container in the VR are both just data. But the mind in CS is and functions as the memory and functional code of the mind or IUOC. The data in the VR as passed from TBC just represents the experience of the IUOC as it experiences the VR packet. It does not think and is not conscious as the IUOC does think and is conscious.

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 3:32 pm 
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Hello Ted:

I think your explanation is very clear, but I don't think it is the same as the one described in the book by Tom. You talk in concepts of "shell", "container". When Tom describes in the book the possibility of developing an AI guy, I don't recall he stating concepts like "shell" or "container". I might be mistaken, but I remain skeptical till somebody cites the equivalent of "shell" or "container" in the book. There is a possibility that this is in your model, not Tom's. I know Tom describes the brain as a "constraint" which can be interpreted as a "container", but when talking about developing an AI guy, the hardware is built in PMR, so it has to have (like everything that process data) an NPMR or TBC counterpart. IMO if the data processing mechanism developed (AI guy) can have potential to evolve, it would be because of the data processing system created in the PMR (with the NPMR counterpart), and therefore created because of this action, and not because of an "insertion" of a new welcomed "IUOC" to take care of it. With your reasoning, then a Terminator generation of robots will demand IUOCs like you or me to take care of robots, instead of being taking care for the Consciousness created when they were designed in PMR and let them evolved on their own.

Also, I am not sure about the way you think. Do you think the VRs are separate from Consciousness Space or the LCS?

Claudio

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:30 pm 
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Claudio,

I don't particularly try to copy Tom's precise terminology nor to not copy that terminology. Instead of shell, I could have said image. If it is in PMR, it is virtual and it is just data, just a representation within the consciousness of the IUOCs participating in PMR that are experiencing some kind of contact with that shell/image/container/representation/data collection contained in the data stream sent to each of those participating IUOCs. Tom was using computer analogies and gaming environments as an example when he talked about AI Guy. The article starting this thread was about some kind of bacterial shell into which entirely artificial DNA was inserted to be the driving force for future generations, as I remember it. So I probably picked up shell from there.

If a Terminator series of robots with actual consciousness were created in PMR, they would have IUOC counterparts that would be their minds, their consciousness. They, as part of PMR, just like the image you see in the mirror or when you look at someone/anyone else are not there out in front of your eyes. The image is virtual just as your eyes are virtual and is the experience created within your consciousness as the IUOC that your exist as within CS. That is what a VR is. It is an experience within your consciousness and that of all other IUOCs participating within that VR. I don't remember precisely what and how much Tom said in the original books about VRs. But he most certainly has discussed them here on the BB. And that is the basis upon which he has discussed them. He did not include the concept of a VRRE as a sub set of TBC, giving us a way to think and talk about that aspect of how the PMR VR experience logically would be created. But he saw the uses of the concept for clarification and asked me to post the chapter I wrote on it for access from the board.

This is not a different model as my model. It is a detailing of some aspects of Tom's model which I think and Tom apparently agrees adds to the clarification of his model. Regarding the VRs and Consciousness Space, there is nothing outside of Consciousness Space or the acronyms that Tom used for emphasizing different aspects of it. The VRs are entirely within CS but they are not within it in the sense that the IUOCs are or that TBC is in CS. TBC and the IUOCs (ourselves) are functional and integral parts of CS. The VRs are just data until they are experienced within minds of the participating IUOCs. The VRs are created by TBC within CS, the data is passed over the RWW to the participating IUOCs and it is interpreted within the minds and consciousnesses of those IUOCs. A model, a rule set, for a VR is created and run in TBC. This produces VRs which appear physical to the participants within which IUOCs can experience things that they cannot experience within the confines of their existence as IUOCs connected over the RWW. When I say within, I am referring to the sense of reality being conveyed and the feeling that one is within the VR. Their physicality is different between NPMRs and PMRs as their rule sets are different. But they are all VRs created to provide a set of constraints and special conditions to foster interaction between IUOCs as their VR selves in order to improve QOC and lower entropy. The PMR class of VRs just happen to be much more intense than the NPMRs so that evolution of consciousness is much faster there. The NPMRs as a class of VRs provide continuity of existence within which the gains from the periodic PMR experiences can be integrated.

There is a link to a thread that Tom started in the reference section of the BB. Tom gives an introduction to VRs there and this is the link to which you are taken from that reference thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3043#wrapheader I really think that Tom covered all of this in that thread and in other places. I don't believe that I am deviating from Tom's model.

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:04 pm 
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I would say the intensity here comes from the physical senses (feelings that get attached to "stuff") which are missing, or very different in NPMR, correct?
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 6:33 pm 
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Hello Ted:

You wrote a good post regarding the VRs. The problem here is not that I don't understand how VR works (even though your post is useful for others), but that your model is more limited than Tom's (the one I follow).

The difference is in what you post as follows:
Quote:
If an IUOC experiences itself in PMR as Joe Scientist who develops what he thinks is an artificial consciousness, then Joe Scientist is the virtual self of that IUOC. The IUOC thinks and sees himself as Joe S. as doing, participating in the creation of a new consciousness, so he thinks. But the IUOCs exist within CS itself, not in the VR. So if the shell that represents an adequate 'host' for a consciousness is produced within the VR, then a real consciousness, an IUOC, from CS steps into the picture and is hooked up from TBC via the RWW to function as the mind, the experiencer, of that virtual self. Yes I have said this numerous times and it is not my invention, but rather Tom's. Think it through one more time and see if I got the words right for you this time around.

Yes, both the mind in CS and the container in the VR are both just data. But the mind in CS is and functions as the memory and functional code of the mind or IUOC. The data in the VR as passed from TBC just represents the experience of the IUOC as it experiences the VR packet. It does not think and is not conscious as the IUOC does think and is conscious.
In the beginning of this quote you assume it is necessary for some IUOC to jump to manage that artificial consciousness. If you re-read the development of an AI guy in the trilogy you will see that it is possible to originate that new Consciousness by the PMR creation. There is nothing "brought". The brought is just in your model, not in Tom's. There is no real space. It is all virtual concepts in Consciousness Domain. Tom also talks in the book that for some people it is difficult to grasp the concept that "a soul" can originate from an AI creation in PMR or in actually some VR. He mentions that AI guy is as artificial as we are. We may have different origins but both us and the AI guy might end up evolving towards love, and in the process change its entropy and configuration.

Here is the difference, where I think Tom's model in this aspect makes more sense than yours. Tom mentioned something like the relativity theory generalized to realities with something like "there is no fundamental reality frame". This concept applies to this analysis.

Do you understand that it is not necessary to call "IUOC John Doe" to come in to take care of robot "Johny" aka AIJ?
If you think that we can be considered as androids (since we are digital systems), you may let your ego accept this.

Do you understand that what you consider not possible, it is considered possible by Tom and also myself?

Claudio

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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 8:26 pm 
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Claudio,

I think you misunderstand what Tom said and his model in full. Consciousness evolved within CS as The One Consciousness. In order to further evolve, improve QOC and reduce entropy, it was necessary for The One Consciousness to have 'someone else' to interact with. There being no one else, it created 'otherness' by taking us, existing from a stage in the evolution of The One Consciousness, and gave us more limited, individuated consciousnesses according to our abilities to host a consciousness and deal with a decision space. That is from critter consciousnesses up to human and beyond. Then The One created NPMR type VRs for us to use as interactive environments to individually develop our QOC and lower our entropy via our interactions with each other. These improvements carried over into CS and The One as we in aggregate are The One. Again, Tom has stated this. It is not my invention.

A computer can be programmed based upon AI concepts. It can be programmed upon neural net concepts and then trained for a purpose. In order to reach consciousness level, in Tom's model, it is required that an IUOC step in as it were and provide that consciousness. Your desktop and whatever machine is finally created that can host a consciousness in PMR will still exist only as input that you and other IUOCs experience within your input data stream. That is simply the nature of VRs and CS under Tom's model. The nature of PMR and NPMR VRs is that they are based upon probabilities projected into the future and as modified by the free will choices of IUOCs interacting with those VRs as 'hardware' and other IUOCs also experiencing the VR. The next 'instant' of VR time is created by the free will choices of the participating IUOCs interacting with the probabilities of the environment. There are also projected probabilities of the choices of the IUOCs, but they are over ridden by the actual choices made. Whatever happens within a VR is established by the rule set along with any over rides that the participating IUOCs can 'slip in'. There is simply no provision in the model as Tom has stated it to permit the development of anything like TBC to be created which can directly host a consciousness fully within PMR.

There is no sense in arguing about it. Either we choose to disagree or Tom steps in and makes some kind of statement. I am aware that he does not wish to do so however so he may choose to let this just 'sit'. It appears to me that you are gradually working your way towards understanding my point of view. There used to be much more that you disagreed with than now.

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 9:00 pm 
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Ted:
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In order to reach consciousness level, in Tom's model, it is required that an IUOC step in as it were and provide that consciousness.
JUST WRONG. AI Guy's chapters in the book say exactly the opposite. This is just your belief.

The problem is not that I misunderstand Tom. You not only disagree with me, but with Tom. To be at the same level and be able to discuss the AI Guy described in Tom's trilogy, you need to re-read it (if you ever read it), because it is pointless that you keep talking about something and I explain to you and you have no idea what I am talking about. It is your choice. You can remain ignorant about the AI Guy possibility of becoming an IUOC or you can read about it in the trilogy (it is also available in the Google book online). You seem to be a very wise guy, but you usually keep talking about other related stuff and skip the point in question and ignore my posts and never give me the benefit of the doubt.

I am curious. We are in the MBT forum. A lot of people read about Tom's AI Guy chapters. Am I the only one that understood it? If anybody else also understood it, I would like to read some opinions.

Claudio

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