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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:50 pm 
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It seems like some of the concepts in Tom's Big TOE are alluded to in the Bible (the only religion I really only know about is Christianity). My family, for instance, lives their lives strictly by the Bible, so anything I might say to them about a larger perspective of the world and our existence would have to meet them at their current religious belief mind-space and progress from there. I am wondering if Tom ever accessed the "PMR database" to be able to see what Jesus, and others, were doing here. Also, what was the purpose of people like Jesus requesting followers, and using fear of a mystical eternal suffering (Hell) to manipulate those followers to keep following Jesus and refrain from investigating any other paths to understanding the larger picture of reality? I mean, even today's Christians sometimes feel afraid to learn about meditation, OOBEs, or even just experiencing lucid dreaming.

Does anyone know of certain forum threads that already address these subjects? It seems like someone with Tom's expertise could easily access the true explanation of what Jesus was really doing (meaning, give an explanation without all the possible transcription errors and human editing that have taken place over the years in the Bible), and help give a basis for loosening the belief-trap in which so many followers remain stuck.

Any guidance on this subject would be appreciated.

thanks!
-neil


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:10 pm 
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I'll let someone else here answer that question, but I did want to say that as someone with Christian Fundamentalist parents, I don't even entertain the idea of brining up MBT even the slightest with my parents, because I already know what the outcome would be.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:21 pm 
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Neil,

What you think it would be so easy for Tom to do would be a form of suicide. Tom may have in fact accessed the data base to find out information, but what do you think would be the reaction if he made any such information public? How long would it be before he paid a serious price? And knowing what Jesus really thought, what kind of a person he really was or perhaps a composite of more than one teacher, would this really tell you anything compared to the structure built from all of the religion builders use of the framework to create the facade of the Christian religion?

Religions are built by a combination of true believers and manipulators with an agenda. That agenda might be personal power and egotism, wealth, a political agenda or who knows what. There appears to have been some of all of this in the development of Christianity both in the earliest times and through to the present.

I did a search for posts mentioning Jesus by Tom. Only three come up. This might be of interest and some value, but it is not what you asked for: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2915&p=5574&hilit=jesus#p5574

You are relatively new to posting, but would you mind if I move this thread to the regular Wud I Say? forum? It is really more of a subject for there than as a beginners post.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Neil,

Here's my personal take on this. At various times in our long history, some individuals came forward with the same strong message: love each other. These probably were/are highly evolved entities incarnating here in this reality, as one or more fragments of their complete self, with the specific purpose of teaching and spreading this message. You don't even have to go very far back in time to find such characters: gandi was one them. Also keep in mind that in order to communicate these ideas, they had to use symbols and metaphores that could be understood by the cultures they were interacting with at this time. These symbols have most probably been heavily distorted by now, leading to all the various kind of dogmas and belief systems you know of today (heaven, hell, etc).

You might be interested in a Seth book entitled "The Eternal Validity of the Soul". In the end, Seth mentions the story of Christ. Take it for what it is, and use your own judgement to see how this version of the tale compares to the ones you know.

In the end though, what I think truly matters is the message, rather than the messenger or his story.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:13 pm 
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Jesus didn't make up hell, that was made up by the guys that made up the bible (1500's I believe) as a way to control through fear, and to create a false fear of death. Jesus was a well organized consciousness who had some great ideas that got all twisted up, and he didn't die for anyone's "sins" (which are really social norms) since we all are 100% responsible for the results of our choices. There is no god, sorry. Lynda will disagree, but we still love each other.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Thanks guys for the replies (did that rhyme??) ;)

And yes, Ted, it is fine with me to move this to another section if you need to. And thank you for posting that link to the Jesus-related posts. I'm sure I will find those very interesting!

I guess I didn't really think so much about any negative worldwide consequences if Tom made information like this public -- It would require a bunch of people to just take his word for it, and that goes against everything he has shared with us. And people would likely over-react to something like that. I guess it's good that those kind of questions might only be answered once an individual consciousness has developed the ability to access it for him/herself, rather than rely on someone else looking up their information for them.

And I do understand that much (if not most) of the religious texts in our history contain language that is very metaphorical and uses lots of imagery, mainly because that was how people discussed those subject topics at the time. After learning a bit about hypnosis and states of trance, I began to see how the "spiritual" feeling that people get in a church service or during times of personal "worship" are more likely a trance state being induced, using the tool of worshiping their god to allow them to fully open their mind to the experience, because they have a full trust in their god. And I don't bring this up to slam religion; I see, just like Tom said in a lecture video, these things are tools, and it is a way to experience altered states of consciousness without having to consciously search for it.

But after trying to discuss some of these things with my parents, I realized I would need to meet them at their understanding of religion and the world in order for any of my thoughts to make it through their communication defense system so they might actually consider what I try to share with them. I kept thinking of the bible verse (John 14:2) where Jesus is talking to the disciples, apparently just after he has pointed out that Judas would betray him, and he says "In my father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."
To me, it sounds like Jesus talking about "many rooms" in the "Father's house" is a very simplified way to talk about many worlds (PMRs) within a larger group/family of worlds (NPMR). And the mystical/cryptic way Jesus refers to himself as the son of god, as well as part of god, and if you "know" Jesus, you know god, etc., just reminds me of the ideas that we are all part of AUM, and the idea of a "god" is the only way people of that time (and usually today as well) would think of a vastly higher-quality consciousness that interacts with our "PMR" in mysterious ways.

Anyway, I was at first thinking about trying to bring up this perspective to my parents by saying something like the following:

Given the more primitive state of language development 2000 years ago (compared to our more technical language generally used today), perhaps it is possible that Jesus uses the idea of a "room" or "dwelling place" to communicate that there are many different spaces available within the whole of the "Father's house". A simple description of a room is that it is a place, or space, where someone, or many people, can reside. Regardless of how large or small the room is, you cannot leave the room without knowing where the doors or windows are, and how to open those doors/windows. Once you learn where the doors are, and how to open them, you are free to exit the current room and go experience another room in the house, or perhaps leave the entire building altogether, and find another place to reside.

If Jesus had spoken of "alternate dimensions" or "parallel universes" to describe the aspects of the full "Father's house," people of that time period would have no understanding of those concepts. So "rooms" works on every level, and can be interpreted in however many ways the audience chooses, from the most simple to the most complex. (Imagine a seemingly infinite "room" that has enough "space" to enclose a life-system as large as our physical universe. Finding the doors to exit a room of that size might take more practice and exploration, and be less obvious, than finding a door to your hallway closet.)


but now I'm thinking that if the subject comes up, great, I will have some kind of prepared method to communicate my ideas to the family, but otherwise, it isn't my place to tell them what to do with their consciousness. Especially as new as I am to this. I'm still going largely on the words of people like Tom, having not yet experienced and seen all that I am looking forward to learning.

Sorry for rambling, but that is why I thought "Hey, it would be great to know once and for all the real truth behind Jesus' (and others') cryptic words." I thought it might help eliminate confusion, because to me, it seems like all (honest) religious leaders are talking about the exact same thing -- trying to describe and make sense out of this "physical" existence, but because of misunderstandings and the limits of human communication, it all gets jumbled up. But it turns out that someone like Tom proclaiming the "truth" to the world would just repeat mistakes that others have made in the past.

And to clarify, my main frustration with talking about these subjects with my family is not to "persuade" them to get interested in what I am interested in; it is just to help them see that the religion they subscribe to alludes to topics very similar to exploring NPMR, etc. (I mean, Christians openly believe in 2 other "worlds" in addition to this physical one: heaven and hell, so why would it be so hard to have more than 3 worlds??) I see their religious views as a paralyzed beginning to understanding this existence, in that they are interested in understanding the truth of the world, and they acknowledge that the physical experience is not "all there is", but they maintain that "no one will ever know the full truth about this world" and they give up on exploring on their own. But I don't need to rant to you guys about this. lol


Last edited by Neil.Laird on Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:06 pm 
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What do you mean by "if" he made this information public, it is public now, always has been really. I'll read the rest of your post now.

edit: It's nice talking/writing here your way through things, isn't it? The only thing Tom says about Truth is that is is NOT fragile, and I concur.
Love
Bette

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:12 pm 
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Yes, Bette, exactly what I am saying, although even this is public information, it is inaccessible to the "general public" of our PMR, simply because the majority probably don't know how to access it. At least, I haven't developed the ability to access it. I'm working on it, though :D

edit: Yes it is! like my old 'journal entries' in college, except I get much better feedback here! lol


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:20 pm 
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They are blocked by Belief Systems, that's why I am so freaky about belief systems BS. They just seems to make people seem retarded, slowed down, limited in their reality, blinding (a requirement) belief systems. I can say retarded because I'm special, I can tell jokes about autism too, yup.

Did you hear about the 15 yr old kid who had never said a word in his life?
Yeah, his mom cooked him breakfast, and called him down. He took one bite of his eggs and said, "Mom, these eggs taste like shit." The mom is beside herself with joy, "Son, son, you spoke, why now after so long?" And he goes, "well, up until now everything was okay." :)
Love
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:28 pm 
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hilarious! lmao


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:29 pm 
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Neil.Laird wrote: After learning a bit about hypnosis and states of trance, I began to see how the "spiritual" feeling that people get in a church service or during times of personal "worship" are more likely a trance state being induced, using the tool of worshiping their god to allow them to fully open their mind to the experience, because they have a full trust in their god.
they don't like wading into the issue of mapping MBT to religion here, and I understand why - it just becomes another Christian discussion website. Perhaps a different venue could be dedicated to that purpose.

That being said (at the risk of getting pulled over by the cops) Some churches focus on our baked in DNA (R-complex) propensity toward religosity/ritual (primitive religions), some are more intellectually (left hemisphere fear and control) focussed like biblicist/believist fundamentalism, and some are more new agey (right hemisphere focussed), just like people tend to fall into one of these three groups.

My favorites are the ones that seem to be right hemispheric stimulation chambers - the best of the bunch IMO is Eastern Orthodox with its smells and bells and a cappella (no instruments, just choir) liturgy. Quaker services are very buddistic (you more or less sit in silence unless someone feels compelled to say something). Black American evangelical can be very powerful emotionally.
Neil.Laird wrote: But after trying to discuss some of these things with my parents, I realized I would need to meet them at their understanding of religion and the world in order for any of my thoughts to make it through their communication defense system so they might actually consider what I try to share with them.
what is your motivation for discussing these things with your parents? If the purpose of incarnation is to seek syntropy and become love, and they are doin it, what is the purpose of messing with their mental roadmap?

now your back slidden cousin (or whoever) is another matter...he may be asking for a new map
Neil.Laird wrote: I kept thinking of the bible verse (John 14:2) where Jesus is talking to the disciples, apparently just after he has pointed out that Judas would betray him, and he says "In my father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."
To me, it sounds like Jesus talking about "many rooms" in the "Father's house" is a very simplified way to talk about many worlds (PMRs) within a larger group/family of worlds (NPMR). And the mystical/cryptic way Jesus refers to himself as the son of god, as well as part of god, and if you "know" Jesus, you know god, etc., just reminds me of the ideas that we are all part of AUM, and the idea of a "god" is the only way people of that time (and usually today as well) would think of a vastly higher-quality consciousness that interacts with our "PMR" in mysterious ways.
I think for anyone who reads the gospels and MBT with an open mind and understanding consiousness will find that the linkages are obvious, and that Jesus was clearly an NPMR dude who almost exclusively talked about becoming love and developing behaviors to optimize post-death results.

I personally think it would be a useful project to map the gospels to MBT, but I am sure you will not find much of an appetite for it here. We may need to form an unsanctioned black ops group for this. Would you voluteer to be temporary file holder for this task?
Neil.Laird wrote: Anyway, I was at first thinking about trying to bring up this perspective to my parents by saying something like the following:

Given the more primitive state of language development 2000 years ago (compared to our more technical language generally used today), perhaps it is possible that Jesus uses the idea of a "room" or "dwelling place" to communicate that there are many different spaces available within the whole of the "Father's house". A simple description of a room is that it is a place, or space, where someone, or many people, can reside. Regardless of how large or small the room is, you cannot leave the room without knowing where the doors or windows are, and how to open those doors/windows. Once you learn where the doors are, and how to open them, you are free to exit the current room and go experience another room in the house, or perhaps leave the entire building altogether, and find another place to reside.

If Jesus had spoken of "alternate dimensions" or "parallel universes" to describe the aspects of the full "Father's house," people of that time period would have no understanding of those concepts. So "rooms" works on every level, and can be interpreted in however many ways the audience chooses, from the most simple to the most complex. (Imagine a seemingly infinite "room" that has enough "space" to enclose a life-system as large as our physical universe. Finding the doors to exit a room of that size might take more practice and exploration, and be less obvious, than finding a door to your hallway closet.)


but now I'm thinking that if the subject comes up, great, I will have some kind of prepared method to communicate my ideas to the family, but otherwise, it isn't my place to tell them what to do with their consciousness. Especially as new as I am to this. I'm still going largely on the words of people like Tom, having not yet experienced and seen all that I am looking forward to learning.
I would say no. Focus on the gospels and use the words there to guide them to "becoming love". Effectively, I would suggest that MBT is the same map but put in nerd lingo. (I mean that affectionately and it is no small feat! - it also goes further as a map for NPMR explorers, which is useful but not essential to becoming love). Speak the language of the FWAU you are interacting with, don't impose a language that is most comfortable for you. Learn many consciousness languages.
Neil.Laird wrote: Sorry for rambling, but that is why I thought "Hey, it would be great to know once and for all the real truth behind Jesus' (and others') cryptic words." I thought it might help eliminate confusion, because to me, it seems like all (honest) religious leaders are talking about the exact same thing -- trying to describe and make sense out of this "physical" existence, but because of misunderstandings and the limits of human communication, it all gets jumbled up. But it turns out that someone like Tom proclaiming the "truth" to the world would just repeat mistakes that others have made in the past.
focus on becoming love in this PMR. If you are curious, learn to NPMR and find out for yourself.

what part of the gospels do you find cryptic? who cares about the cosmology...just focus on being a good neighbour.
Neil.Laird wrote: And to clarify, my main frustration with talking about these subjects with my family is not to "persuade" them to get interested in what I am interested in; it is just to help them see that the religion they subscribe to alludes to topics very similar to exploring NPMR, etc. (I mean, Christians openly believe in 2 other "worlds" in addition to this physical one: heaven and hell, so why would it be so hard to have more than 3 worlds??) I see their religious views as a paralyzed beginning to understanding this existence, in that they are interested in understanding the truth of the world, and they acknowledge that the physical experience is not "all there is", but they maintain that "no one will ever know the full truth about this world" and they give up on exploring on their own. But I don't need to rant to you guys about this. lol
feel free to PM me on this if you want to take it further

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:01 pm 
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Hi neil welcome to the forum. The first question I was asked when I got here was 'is MBT a belief system or a model of reality?' the point I think bette was trying to make to me when she asked me this, was that there is a clear distinction between the two, with one you need to belive and to have faith, the other you don't.
MBT is not a system of belief that should be expressed in the context of a story or mythical tail, its a science which can only be understood through a skeptical approach and through science. The point I am trying to make is to trust that you're family have made there choice and they have faith in there belief system. Suggesting to then that MBT can be understood within the confined's of there religon will not achieve anything. Explore you're own path and always question what you belive and don't be scared to ask difficult question's. damon Ps, I think i'm ready for another question now bette :p

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:08 pm 
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I'll sleep on it Damon.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:35 pm 
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Well I go to stone henge tomorow and I won't be back till after the solstis so you have plenty of time. Damon

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:35 pm 
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Neil, I understand your desire to explore your thoughts and ideas with your parents. I have a girlfriend who is a fundamentalist Christian, and I sometimes wish I could discuss my ideas and thoughts about things I have read with her. However, because she is firmly entrenched in her belief system, a discussion requiring an open mind becomes impossible because in her belief-system-mind-set any such discussion is an attempt by the Devil to distract her thoughts away from what her Lord and God want her to believe, and to tempt her away from her Faith.

And, as kroeran has pointed out, if that is the way they are seeking to increase Love, then so be it, and why mess with their mental road map? I guess for me, the answer to that question is that in my case, I see that the mental road map chosen by this person is not really working for them, but they are stuck in it by their choice to hold it near and dear as a firmly entrenched belief system. I personally find it sad that someone is so insecure that they need to rely on dogma to make them feel safe. But it is what it is, and that is what she needs for her present state of consciousness and state of evolution.

So while I do share your desire to discuss these things with someone important in my life, and the frustration of being unable to do so, I also realize that certain people just are not able or ready to do so. Guess that's why I am on here instead, so I can mingle with folks of like mind, who are open minded, and willing to explore various possibilities, and ways of looking at Reality.

:)


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