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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:05 pm 
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Preface: I have not read MBT (yet), but have watched a couple hours worth of lectures from yourself (Dr. Campbell) on MBT as well as many videos from Robert Monroe. I have an elementary knowledge and understanding of physics (introductory-level college classes formally, plus years of personal study) and an extremely open and creative mind. I'm young (22), naive, and genuinely curious on this topic because like you I'm searching for the 'big' picture. I truly would like to see your theories as truth and hope that existence really is that multi-faceted, at this point I just can't get past a skepticism I cannot control.

Argument: What tangible connections does this theory have with the universe in which we live in? I'll explain why it's important that you must make this connection (whether or not it's impossible in your theory).

I completely understand the notion that you cannot prove the subjective when limited to the realm of the objective (physical universe), but some distinct connection must be made before the 'Big Theory' here can be ruled valid. Science has proven that magnetic forces and electromagnetic impulses can control a human's mind to the point where they truly do believe in their mind that they are somewhere 'else', astral projecting, remote viewing, etc, and furthermore that is is both possible and probable that someone creative and intelligent can replicate these signals within their own mind. Who's to say that you're just enjoying deep thought and "provocative meditation" when you explore these other dimensions, and drawing what you would call tangible conclusions from them? Measurable and proven science has an answer that says all of it could simply be a figment of your imagination...your theories seem to have no real retaliation to this other than "you must experience it to understand it". What if experiencing it simply means learning how to meditate deeply and wander in your own imagination? There is no bottom line, there is nothing tangible, there is nothing to actually make you believe that what you're experiencing is "real". I can prove that all of us live in our physical universe, you cannot prove that we all exist somewhere else. This is a problem with your theory.

I enjoyed listening to you speak and truly do analyze these thoughts with an open mind (and will soon begin meditation), and I don't even really see this topic as being a 'Negative Rant'. I believe that experiencing this level of meditation and exploration of the mind is something that can benefit anybody, even if for the simple reason to demonstrate that the entire physical world can be reduced to the size of a pin-prick and that consciousness is truly the big picture.

My problem comes in when you try to assert this meditation as something real and tangible. Yes, you say that the only way to study it is to experience it, but you are speaking as if it were tangible. You're putting it into a theory...an idea...something to study...something to prove. You believe that you truly are traveling to different frames of dimension, that you're transcending the physical consciousness of our universe, that there certainly is somewhere for your consciousness to go after physical death. Whether you know that it's real or not, we have measured that we can physically induce the exact same feelings through tangible and testable evidence. Your theories have no tangibility that can be tested, because experiencing it is something that in all likelihood something that is generated by your brain. You truly think and believe that you're traveling through space and different worlds, speaking with other spirits, exploring probability outcomes of the past and future, etc. What is there to say then against the argument: it is all simply something generated by your brain that you truly believe? Belief is a powerful term and is something that is studied, and the studies do not help support what you propose.

An example of my argument? I'll use lucid dreaming, both from studies and my personal experience with it. For starters, I understand the differences between dreaming and being conscious, that's not the point. Let's say for example that a person is extremely skilled in becoming aware while dreaming. You're in a dream, realize you're dreaming, and consciousness hits. Now you have control over the dream, can see where you are, everything feels real, when you wake up you feel like you actually experienced it. You close your eyes in the dream and imagine that you're in Nazi occupied Germany (just because this is an example you used). You can live through that dream and change history (because it's something you control). You can let Hitler live and see what happens, you can travel to the day where it was said he killed himself and witness it to see if it were really true, you can view the probable outcomes of how these events will change the future. The point is, it's just something your imagination and consciousness creates.

Your work is great for understanding the true power of the mind, exploring the imagination, and fully utilizing our consciousness...something 99.99% of people do not do. But there is nothing in these theories that actually supports these ideas as something actual. I can spend months learning meditation and OBE and get to the point where I'm traveling through space, I do believe that. But at the end of the day, when I 'come back' to my physical body, nothing actually happened aside from some mental stimulation.

This theory is hard because there really is no way to prove it, and I don't see any way of possibly connecting it to the physical universe. I understand the physical universe is the smaller piece of a much larger puzzle...in your theory. At this point I would place consciousness in our physical universe, leaving no bigger picture, no billion multiverses all with different outcomes. Probable outcomes are just something generated by using the advanced powers of our minds and imaginations (which most people don't do). In your mind you can see what the world might have been if Hitler survived and WWII was won by Germany, but there is no way to prove that things really would have ended up that way if Hitler had lived. It's just an outcome generated by your mind. Sure anything could have happened, but that's not how it works. One thing did happen, exploring all other outcomes is pointless because those outcomes did not happen, and will never happen. The universe is finite, something you would agree with. It's just a mental exercise that can help improve your perception on life and how you use the free will that you have.

For your theory to become valid I believe some tie-in to the physical universe we live in now must be proven. You cannot prove that all of us live in this multidimensional grand universe, but that is what you claim. Where else would we all go when we die?

It is clear that you are extremely intelligent, and that only supports the notion that it's very possible your imagination came up with all of these ideas and structured them formally, logically, and physically. Ideas meaning the "experiences" you've had in other dimensions of consciousness. I don't want you to feel insulted by my arguments, I'm not a person in the mainstream arguing that you and your thoughts crazy. I'd say that you're crazy intelligent (using crazy as slang), and that your intelligence supplies you with reasons to support what you experience as a result of the deep connection you have with your mind and consciousness. Everything you say makes perfect logical sense to me, but I'd be curious as to the response you'd have to a statement like: this is all a theory created by utilizing your intelligence and exploration of what the mind really can be, not what it actually is. Your theories, studies, and arguments do make progress in understanding what we as humans can get out of our minds, they don't explain any "bigger picture" though. I'm still very open to the possibility that when we die, our consciousness is cut off and ceases to exist, just like it begins when we're physically born. You've closed that possibility, and I suppose that's where the endless debate begins. (As a side note, I am not an atheist)

I truly want to believe, it's just at this point my mind is conflicted with skepticism. Any response is appreciated, and others can feel free to chime in their opinions as well. I apologize for the length of the post, and doubly apologize for any fragmented sentences or incomplete thoughts/arguments...I only proofread once and I'm still just a student. I'm sure there are many flaws in a lot of the arguments I've made here, so I understand if you can't touch on everything.


*Random off-topic question: How is consciousness determined? You say that even an oyster has consciousness because it has free will to move around. Are there "less intelligent" and "more intelligent" forms of consciousness? What happen's to a dog's consciousness when it's physical body dies? It just "floats around" waiting for a less entropic state to present itself? You've said multiple times that every person has the ability to view these extra dimensions...this is something that requires an immense amount of mind control. Bacterium, dogs, oysters, etc do not have any control over their minds in these regards; they are not intelligent and therefore cannot experience these dimensions. Shouldn't they be able to according to your theory?


Last edited by SUP3RNOVA on Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:30 pm 
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Hey,

I heaven't posted on this forum for a while.

It's always funny to me, how people claim to have watched/read some material with open minded skepticism, and end up asking questions that where answered in all that material they claim they read.

Tom Campbell said on all ocassions that you need to collect evidential data. If you heal and generally... apply your intent to make some things change, like ph of water, or anything else, then collect data on the process, and see if it worked 9 out of 10 times when you applied your intent to do something, and 3 out of 10 times if you didn't apply your intent, only conclusion that is left is that 'mind' have some kind of 'power' over matter. I over simplified this, in mbt power, mind, matter only exist as 'simulations'. Ideas and metaphors. Or if you prefer eastern point of view, illusion, as buddhists yogi's and other call this objective reality we live in.

Also, in videos Tom Campbell mentioned quite a few times, he and his friend went out and had 'out of body' experiences together, and recorded their talk about those experiences while experiencing in sound isolated rooms (so they couldn't possibly hear one another), and later listened it on tape and it was almost the same. Only metaphors where different, because obviously... even without MBT, you can conclude that reality is subjective. People experience reality different ways, depending on their culture, level of information they have, etc.

Also, there are a lot of these examples, including the research done by Bob Monroe.

I understand that from your standpoint, you can either believe Tom, or think he's a delusional liar, but none of those will get you far.

And there's already A LOT of these kind of threads here.. why don't you browse a bit first, inform yourself first.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Quote:
If you heal and generally... apply your intent to make some things change, like ph of water, or anything else, then collect data on the process, and see if it worked 9 out of 10 times when you applied your intent to do something, and 3 out of 10 times if you didn't apply your intent, only conclusion that is left is that 'mind' have some kind of 'power' over matter.
From the get-go you're talking about something physical (healing, changing the ph of water). If there were legitimate peer-reviewed and proven studies on these abilities, wouldn't this become a huge realm of science? People have claimed to see the future, remote view, heal, etc. for decades. Yet it has all been labeled as "psuedo science", or in other terms science that has no point. If there were actual proof of this, I am positive it would be published and nobody could deny it. Humanity as a whole would change quite a bit in this case. But it has not, and Dr. Campbell himself even calls what he has "theories". They would no longer be theories, they would be science. But they are not.
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People experience reality different ways, depending on their culture, level of information they have, etc.
This is also a point that doesn't make sense. There's no validity to saying "reality and the universe and it's laws are different for every single person" when you're trying to prove ONE big theory of everything. You say Campbell and Monroe both experienced the same thing, but through different metaphors. It's not possible that they're both physically intelligent people who have the same belief, and therefore see similar things when exploring their thoughts? Yes, that is completely possible. Real proof would be them saying and seeing the EXACT same thing...it must be exact.
Quote:
I understand that from your standpoint, you can either believe Tom, or think he's a delusional liar, but none of those will get you far.
From this alone I see you're missing my viewpoint. I'm not even close to labeling Campbell as a delusional liar, my skepticism is none of that sort and you should have gathered that from my post.
Quote:
And there's already A LOT of these kind of threads here.. why don't you browse a bit first, inform yourself first.
I saw 23 total threads in the 'Negative Opinion' section, I read 2 or 3 of them and scanned the rest of the titles. I'll go through the rest and see if my argument is clearly explained somewhere else by Dr. Campbell.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:13 pm 
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Well, you came here with predefined opinion and belief. What do you expect.
That is not open minded skepticism. You aren't the first one tho.

It's like fighting with your gf. You're saying one thing, she hears completley something different, and vice versa.
Or .. second example. Optimistic and pessimistic people. Generally... the 'same world' to both groups of people will seem, feel and be different. They're both wrong and both right at the same time, of course, but this is just for sake of argument.
Also you can take history as an example. Those people where more or less the same as we, with regards to intellectual capacity, but the environment in which they grew up, the information they posses was quite small, compared to us today, therefore the difference.

No, laws are the same for everyone. If you jump you'll fall and that's that. There are special case exceptions, but it's not relevant now. The difference is in the way people process information.
Take egzorcism as an example this time. People before couldn't explain it, and they geniounly thought 'victims' where possesed(which from your perspective is probably stupid beyond belief), while actually... they had some kind of disability/illness or something similiar, which is quite easily explained in this century. There are millions of those examples. Just look at religion/history. And don't fool yourself that you're smart and they where not.

You want certainty and objectivity, if you can't accept whatever comes because of this, then I would suggest you take different approach with your desire to find out the 'big picture'.

P.S.

I didn't say you where labeling Tom Campbell, but that's only thing you can do at this point, because he won't come here and prove this to you by levitating for you and scientific community or whatever people think this is. And whatever he or anyone says to you, it can't be discussed, because words are also metaphors, which are differently processed by all of us.

This is all my opinion of course, so I usually abstain from any discussion on this subject, because people are either 'ready' or they are not. You can't force this on anyone, or someone can't understand even if they egoistically want to understand, so it fulfils their passion for certainty and security.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:41 pm 
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And if my opinion is worth anything... If you want intellectual knowledge you should start by reading psychology material, philosophical material, then eastern mysticism and eastern philosophy, you're already into science... then read MBT which will connect all the dots, and wrap it all up in one neat little package.

It's the way I progressed first until I found MBT, which did wonders for me with all those scattered information I gathered years before MBT. It explained everything in logical fashion.

Now I don't read anything anymore. I'm not interested in reading other peoples experiences and theory's because they are ... irrelevant for me. If you read all of that i suggested, then you'll notice that next step is to forget all that you read, and focus on practical side of introspection and reality exploration.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:11 pm 
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Here, welocme, and just read the book please. http://books.google.com/books?id=RYHtBP ... &q&f=false.
Love to you and yours,
Bette

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:48 pm 
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Hello SUP3RNOVA,

Welcome to the discussion board.

There is nothing at all wrong with your scepticism IMO. You seem intelligent,you ask good questions and your post seems very civil to me so far.First off though,about the word 'proof'-I want to point out that I think the word 'evidence' may be better. But that aside,I just want to respond with a couple of things and then show you a link to a personal experience of mine that I have recently shared on the board-One which may or may not encourage you to do your own exploration.Also,I would really recommend reading the book.I'll try to address the gist of your post if I can.

Much of your post was summed up for me here: "The point is,it's just something your imagination and consciousness creates." In a nutshell I hear you asking: 'How do we know that the explorations ,on which parts of the Theory are based upon, are not just the workings of a "creative" and "intelligent" brain ?'

This is not too far off really,imagination and consciousness does create-there is nothing knowable 'outside' of it.Though somethings are not able to be directly experienced they can still be an inference;but they must still be in consciousness,this is inescapable.This doesn't mean that there are not facts to be discovered ,but we have to work with the constraints and limitations of our level of organization and expand them to discover more.I personally believe we have to focus 'inward' as well as 'outward' to do this,consciousness has to evolve.

Besides technological advancement and scientific physical experiments,this leads to two other things in my mind-abstraction and so called paranormal experiences like OBEs and LDs. As for abstraction,my interpretation is that Tom's theory, in a sense, says that what lies beyond our transparent senses is another bigger "creative" and "intelligent brain".One that interactively defines and renders to a consciousness subunit it's contents..... and experience of a brain-but this is an over simplification.Again I recommend the book. My point is that reality is attributed to consciousness in this model;only a consciousness beyond the defined boundaries of the experienced PMR brain.So you are partly correct IMO.

Since conscious experiences have an entirely nonphysical dimension to them,I believe there cannot be proof in the way that you ask for-so as Tom says things become 'necessarily mystical'. What kind of evidence can show that there is consciousness beyond the defined boundaries of the physical brain and death? Well,my answer is that one can experience, in their own specialized partitioned section of consciousness space, some verifiable content who's origin had no conventional (PMR)means of sensory input. Something previously unknown and unexperienced ;but able to be later verified 'in' PMR.

Tom gave just a couple of examples in his book.Until you gain your own experiences you are correct IMHO to reserve scepticism. Here is mine for what it may be worth to you:Scroll down to page 39 under the "In your Dreams" section. Read: 'Jeff Sept 17,2008 My most profound LD/OBE to date" http://dreaminglucid.com/issues/LDE51.pdf

I don't claim this as 'proof' of Tom's theory;but to me,his is absolutely the best explanation out there. BTW if you read the book you will see that he is honest about the places that he necessarily must form abstractions-but they are based on solid logic and presumably personal experiences not shared for his own personal reasons.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm 
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My Big TOE explains and derives a great deal about the rule-set of the physical universe. I see no examples in your post, so you might have missed them.

I'm not making a long post here at the moment, but I found some threads and posts which should interest you.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5305&p=27435&hilit=proof#p27435
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5014&p=22425&hilit=science#p22425
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4046&p=14096&hilit=science#p14096


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:22 pm 
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I don't claim this as 'proof' of Tom's theory;but to me,his is absolutely the best explanation out there. BTW if you read the book you will see that he is honest about the places that he necessarily must form abstractions-but they are based on solid logic and presumably personal experiences not shared for his own personal reasons.
Are you open to the possibility that you imagined an old man with some very common features (white hair and a moustache) in your dream, and then when you saw someone similar in a picture, your mind told you that was the person in your dream (when in actuality the old man in your dream was just completely random)? And have you never gone through your wife's pictures in the past? Even if you don't remember looking at one, you may have seen it quickly and stored it in your memory. It doesn't seem there is any truly revealing piece of information about the person.

If you are open to everything MBT suggests, you must be open to the fact that your brain could have easily made you believe that the picture of the old man was really the same old man you saw in your dream.
Quote:
My Big TOE explains and derives a great deal about the rule-set of the physical universe. I see no examples in your post, so you might have missed them.
He is assuming that the "rule-set" of our physical universe is something that is set in stone. It is not, with the exploration of quantum mechanics and metaphysics there are many rules about our physical universe that have yet to be written. Can consciousness not be a part of our physical universe that we just haven't fully understood yet? Campbell posts a few graphs displaying all the probable outcomes and how they expand outward from our physical universe, and are a part of some bigger system. Why can his theory not be reversed? So that all of the probable outcomes ARE a part of our consciousness, but our consciousness is located all within our universe (and the physical universe inside of that).


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:37 pm 
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The best bet is to read the book and write down questions as you go. I am understaning many of the concepts for the first time on my second read. Applying the approch suggested (both dirrectly and indirectly) in the book has instigated a journey and level of understanding that I never expected.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:50 am 
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One more question before I take the time to read the book (if this is answered in the book, just let me know) :

Campbell speaks many times of "nasty" things in other realities, unpleasant things, dangerous things, things we wouldn't want to be involved with. But things that he's seen. Why has his consciousness never been harmed? What if someone's consciousness is harmed by one of these "evil" forces? Certainly it would impact your physical body here on Earth, as your consciousness is critical to living here. I would think that with all of the people experiencing OBEs, a certain percentage would physically die or go into a coma because they lost consciousness forever, because it was harmed or trapped in another reality.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:35 am 
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Nova,

Look for the concept of Virtual Realities and how we experience them as data streams. There is a lot of information on the board. Look in the bottom section of the index page for reference threads. Also search for VRs and the RWW.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:07 am 
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SUP3RNOVA,
I was open to those possibilities long enough to see that they are incomplete.That is, if I had had a fMRI at the time there would have been images that would have represented the neural correlates of my experience. This would not have proved the metabolic brain activity to be the creator and source of the experience.It would certainly show somewhat of a relationship between the conscious experience aspect of reality in our PMR frame of reference and the matter aspect of reality,also an experience.

I think there are greater odds of me winning the lotto than of me having seen a picture of him before the experience, and then consciously forgetting. The photo album was packed away and unknown to me. Of course only my family can attest to that.( look up Tom's psi uncertainty principle)

Even if you take the brain to be the creator of all aspects of experience you are on shakey ground IMO. When it comes down to it,what science traditionally believes at this point is that the brain internally models the world somehow with biochemical reactions and electrical impulses as you know.But when you think about it,that is quite a claim too!

Consider that when you sleep,deeply meditate, OBE or LD there are no air vibrations hitting your eardrums encoded with the information you 'hear'. No light encoded information hitting your retinas that represent what you 'see' -no 'light' in your head.Same for proprioception,tactile,etc.

So,just because the thalamus and brainstem have altered the electrical firing patterns and the flow of nuerotransmitters,and whatever else - we are to believe that this creates a world of experience at which there are cells transparently creating a self that experiences other cells as scenery and sound ? Still other cells are the plot,writter,director,producer,special effects, people,objects,stunt coordinator,....etc.

This is an amazing feat for biochemicals,electrical potential and randomness.Something is missing here for sure.

As for the VR analogy. Consider that they can still hold true for the assumption that our PMR is all there is. We humans are made of the same hardware as the universe and are therefore virtual aspects of it.Since you brought up QM,consider that the matter that the brain is of doesn't exist as such without 'observation'- a paradox.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Thomas Campbell, not Dr. Campbell, okay? For clarity and so no "lack by omission" issues that come from not correcting an error like this. Many people make it, but it does need to be cleared each time, in my opinion.
Thank you.
Love
Bette
PS: I think you'll like the book. :)

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Consciousness.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:18 pm 
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Hello SUP3RNOVA

Welcome to the forum.
Sorry for the turbulance you have experienced on your landing here,Toe heads can be a passionate buch at times because the questions you have asked have already seemingly been done to death a thousand times.
I for one am looking forward to reading your future posts and seeing if you can unearth some tasty nuggets for us to chew on.
Hopefully you can contribute in an open minded way and add your own distincitiveness to the big picture and the forum as a whole,one thing I can say for sure is that any time you spend here will not be wasted in any regard.

Please feel free to take samples or measurements of anything you like but always remember the best instrument for this kind of scientific work is your mind!
Why does no one trust the finest computer ever made to take measurements or make observations,what makes us presume we can do a better job with machines?

Have faith in your self and no one else,believe nothing and challenge everything......go get em!!!!!

Oh,I'd like to add that Your will already seems perfectly adequate for the job in hand!Just make sure you put the hours in on the meditation and try not to always use the intellect,if you do that you won't learn nearly as much.

Love,
Wayno

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