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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:12 am 
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While the purpose of the board is the work of Tom Campbell, this forum is reserved for whatever else you feel is important. The following link is to an excellent description of the current political and economic situation in the United States as caused by politics. I seriously suggest that you all who live in the US read it in order to know what is happening. The author is a professional political insider/staffer from the Republican side who became disgusted with the overwhelming presence of ideologues in that party and on the right generally and what they are willing to do to the country to further their ends. He tells it like it is even better than I understood it and with more information than I had. He refers to "low information voters" as the natural target of the Republicans and the right. The same source of the initial power of Adolf Hitler. If those traditionally uninterested in politics such as intellectuals and the young (I plead guilty in the past.) pay no attention and are inactive in the coming electoral process, I fear that we could go rapidly and inexorably down the path to a right wing and fundamentalist religious based coalition running the country which would take us back to third world conditions and potential dictatorship. Here is the link:
http://www.truth-out.org/goodbye-all-re ... 1314907779

While I know that some have expressed unhappiness with long articles, and this is a long one, I consider it to be of such importance as to over ride that preference. You do yourself harm if you do not read it and spread the word around. I'm sure you know those who are disgusted with politics. You cannot permit that to lead you into ignoring the current situation, leaving the next election to be won at the whim of the "low information voters" and causing you to seriously regret your failure.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:53 am 
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Sorry Ted, there is not anyone to vote for that isn't part of the machine that won't get marginalized or despatched should s/he actually attain any office of consequence.

Instead of hanging out at the trailing end of the bell-curve, I'd like to have a go at the other side and get a little ahead of things.

I've been wondering what sorts of things, patterns, events to expect and how to best ('profitably') negotiate through them at times when civilizations collapse. I expect the American civilization to collapse, that is, undergo several drops in class on several levels of consequence, in the next decade or so.

Do any of the boardies recall times of social collapse and what happened there? ...how it all went down, what to watch for and where opportunities surfaced, etc. etc.

Thanks,
Montana


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:01 pm 
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It works both ways, Ted. Both parties target "low information voters". Both parties are bought by money, and want to further their ideologues. I only did a fast skimming through that article, but in my opinion it is biased.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:20 pm 
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I think in a closer reading you would see that he is not biased. He just happens to know the inner workings of the Republicans and their thinking and planning as an ex Republican staffer. He very clearly refers to Democratic problems. He just considers them disorganized in comparison, not so locked into a monolithic block action as the Republicans. This is the source of the danger I see. That they have organized themselves into a block of ideologues with their actions and statements aimed at enticing those who look very simplistically at politics and are easily swayed by simple slogans and sound bites. What he calls "low information voters". If the Democrats can't handle them, and the appear to be too disorganized to do so, then only the full participation of those voters who look more deeply into things can prevent the next elections from going in the direction of the Tea Baggers converting into a true new version of 'Brownshirts' which were the basis of Adolf Hitler's initial rise.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Of course. It just seems that it is going to be impossible to avoid. The only hope would be a decimation of the planet .... massive EMPs and an 80% kill-rate plague, for example. I see politics, lunacy, lack of focus, lack of grounding, narcissistic preoccupation, greed and contempt at every level of American society these days. (I can't comment on other regions of the world, but, that said, most don't appear to be heading in any better direction, from what one gathers on the web). Voting for Joe Schmoe instead of Jill Shill just isn't going to make any difference.

</shrugs shoulders> Ehn~ I've been wrong before. </shrugs>

Maybe the aliens will land and give us all Mary Poppins-esque lectures, morally uplifting, and invigorating to hope for a clean and shiny future. Or maybe our spirit guides will give all 6 billion of us a solid whack on the crown chakra with those star-tipped power wands they sport about with. Of course, one can't help but wonder: what's been keeping them so long...?

Human cultures, for the most part, are aging, not like a fine wine, but rather, like a dairy product.

JUST my opinion. I seem to be in a sourish, if accepting, mood this morning.

-Montana

(added later: I just came across this site, http://dont-tread-on.me/police-state-ro ... -the-ussa/

I haven't vetted the links yet, but, well, see what you think.)


Last edited by Montana on Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Montana,

Regarding your earlier post, I don't think that any of us really go back that far. Post war America I remember. I was not alive during the so called Great Depression. There are plenty of accounts. I once tried to prepare for such a societal breakdown but it has gotten put off past the time that I might have hoped to do anything personally about it. I have spoken on the board about buying 20 rural and relatively isolated acres, touching on a river, and hoping at one time to build a house there that I know how to build of materials resistant to fire as well as gunfire and extremely energy efficient, what ever the climate became. I also taught myself, decades ago, to raise small livestock and grow some food and still have most of that equipment stored on this property but I am long past that ability physically. I still own the land in a sense, although it was put into the trust my parents started to protect it, and I don't have direct control of it any more. My sons are trustees and I am no longer a trustee, just the beneficiary. Long story to that. Part of the land would even be above water if all the ice of the North and South polar regions melted and Florida went back to the skinny peninsula that it once was and it became prime beach front property. Or if things went the other way, it would be very comfortable climate in a new ice age. Really, all bets are off in a societal breakdown. You are just playing paper/scissors/rock and seeing how the thing comes out.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:08 pm 
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I am afraid, that this kind of revelations were due at least ten years ago. There is nobody to vote, and two party system became an obsolete, and unless more different parties will take a part in a political play, nothing can be done by 'fellow Americans' to change political climate in this country. American citizens are not going to repeat Orange Revolution of Ukraine. And by the way, Ukraine economy and political system in a state of disarray and collapse, only because at the time of revolution Ukrainian people had no choice. All politician were corrupt and cared about power and destroying another party.

These two parties (democrats and republicans) are pulling a blanket (our votes) to the left and right, only to fogret about Joe and Susan on the street for four years after the election. Each of them care about their pockets and a saving account in a Swiss bank.

Lena

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:03 pm 
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Lena,

There is yet a difference. Politicians are politicians, ready to be bought and sold, as from time immemorial. Then there are ideologues who take their ideology above their oath of office to support and uphold the Constitution. We just had a major dose of that in the manufactured debt crisis. The Tea Partiers are ideologues. They swore an oath of office to uphold the constitution but yet they deliberately foreswore themselves in creating the recent debt crisis, putting their ideology of no more taxes above the debt accepted under the Constitution by previous congresses. That is the definition of an ideologue: one who puts ideology above all else. If you examine Hitler's brownshirts, you will find Nazi ideologues who were the foundation of his initial power. I see the Tea Baggers as equivalents. The tea bagger on the street is the "low information voter" who could readily become the brownshirts of our country. The only thing that saved us in this last manufactured congressional foolishness was the fact that there were still enough good ole boy politicians to horse trade a solution before it took down the economy completely. There may be little difference between candidate 1 and candidate 2 as people who you want to know or trust. There is a vast difference between those who stand up and say, come hell or high water, I will never vote for more taxes for anyone. That means that they are ideologues bought and paid for by the big corporations or those multi-billionaires who really do own most of America. They may not even know it, but such they are. They will take the country in directions that a real politician would never do so. Obviously this is not clear to everyone but if you just throw up your hands and say, all politicians are crooks and all the same, then you play into their hands. That is my whole concern: to advise you that there are ideologues coming into power who do not play by the rules of ordinary politics and who will gladly pull down the country based upon an ideology without any balancing forces and deeper understanding of the associated problems. And they will tell any lie necessary to do so.

I know of poor people who have spent months on unemployment who are duped by this stupidity. They would vote for ideologues to stop the very social programs that have kept them from having to live under a bridge and kept food on their table through this high unemployment spell so far. I know of people on Social Security and Medicare that are in favor of the Tea Baggers and say 'just as long as they don't mess with my Social Security', not realizing that this is part of their avowed program, to destroy Social Security and Medicare as 'entitlements' which are anathema as being 'unearned' despite the fact that those receiving them paid taxes for all of their lives for that entitlement. I know of people who say 'I am such a good Christian that I don't care what they shut down or don't pay as God will protect me'. People whose lives are dependent upon social programs enacted over the past 50 to 100 years or so but are part of the "low information voters" targeted by the Republicans and ready to vote for ideologues who say in so many words that they plan to pull down the social structure as it exists. These "low information voters", between age, limited education and limited intelligence are open to falling under the spell of a slogan that may have some value as an idea but not on its own without counterbalancing thinking.

Never believe that all politicians are alike so it is not worth bothering to vote. All it takes to find ourselves facing another dictator, a man on horseback, is that intelligent and capable citizens do nothing, throwing up their hands on the basis that all politicians are alike and leaving it to the "low information voters" to make the choices.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:43 pm 
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Ted,

I was hoping that some here might volunteer past life experience. Societies and civilizations are forever rising and falling, collapsing.

There must be a few patterns that are consistent.... classes of memes of demoralization, their propagation styles, the kind of remedies that they yield to, for example; Or the changes in relative values of goods and services; Proclivities to rumor, riot, cult formation... etc etc.

-Montana


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:17 am 
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Quote:
Lena,

There is yet a difference. Politicians are politicians, ready to be bought and sold, as from time immemorial. Then there are ideologues who take their ideology above their oath of office to support and uphold the Constitution. We just had a major dose of that in the manufactured debt crisis. The Tea Partiers are ideologues. They swore an oath of office to uphold the constitution but yet they deliberately foreswore themselves in creating the recent debt crisis, putting their ideology of no more taxes above the debt accepted under the Constitution by previous congresses. That is the definition of an ideologue: one who puts ideology above all else. If you examine Hitler's brownshirts, you will find Nazi ideologues who were the foundation of his initial power. I see the Tea Baggers as equivalents. The tea bagger on the street is the "low information voter" who could readily become the brownshirts of our country. The only thing that saved us in this last manufactured congressional foolishness was the fact that there were still enough good ole boy politicians to horse trade a solution before it took down the economy completely. There may be little difference between candidate 1 and candidate 2 as people who you want to know or trust. There is a vast difference between those who stand up and say, come hell or high water, I will never vote for more taxes for anyone. That means that they are ideologues bought and paid for by the big corporations or those multi-billionaires who really do own most of America. They may not even know it, but such they are. They will take the country in directions that a real politician would never do so. Obviously this is not clear to everyone but if you just throw up your hands and say, all politicians are crooks and all the same, then you play into their hands. That is my whole concern: to advise you that there are ideologues coming into power who do not play by the rules of ordinary politics and who will gladly pull down the country based upon an ideology without any balancing forces and deeper understanding of the associated problems. And they will tell any lie necessary to do so.

I know of poor people who have spent months on unemployment who are duped by this stupidity. They would vote for ideologues to stop the very social programs that have kept them from having to live under a bridge and kept food on their table through this high unemployment spell so far. I know of people on Social Security and Medicare that are in favor of the Tea Baggers and say 'just as long as they don't mess with my Social Security', not realizing that this is part of their avowed program, to destroy Social Security and Medicare as 'entitlements' which are anathema as being 'unearned' despite the fact that those receiving them paid taxes for all of their lives for that entitlement. I know of people who say 'I am such a good Christian that I don't care what they shut down or don't pay as God will protect me'. People whose lives are dependent upon social programs enacted over the past 50 to 100 years or so but are part of the "low information voters" targeted by the Republicans and ready to vote for ideologues who say in so many words that they plan to pull down the social structure as it exists. These "low information voters", between age, limited education and limited intelligence are open to falling under the spell of a slogan that may have some value as an idea but not on its own without counterbalancing thinking.

Never believe that all politicians are alike so it is not worth bothering to vote. All it takes to find ourselves facing another dictator, a man on horseback, is that intelligent and capable citizens do nothing, throwing up their hands on the basis that all politicians are alike and leaving it to the "low information voters" to make the choices.

Ted
I respect your opinion, but I disagree. You can say low information voters on both sides could become the new "brown shirts" for various different reasons. I also disagree that the tea party did anything unconstitutional by not wanting to raise taxes. Raising taxes is not the solution to everything. We have a spending problem, not lack of income. Spending is out of control and needs to be stopped. It doesn't matter how much you tax if you spend twice that amount the second you get the money. It's like saying someone who makes a good chunk of money should be able to get on welfare just because they spend it on a bunch of stuff they don't need before they buy food for themselves if you ask me.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:25 am 
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Low information voters on the Tea Bagger side are the ones aimed for becoming the new brownshirts. Not the equivalent among the Democrats. Democrats are noted for their disorganization and those who might be considered ideologues are not in position to do damages nor seem inclined to. Those who are low information voters on the Democratic side are being purely and deliberately misled by the simple minded slogans, outright lies and religious fundamentalist posturings expressed deliberately by the Republican right. That is what I am trying to warn you of. Get out of the low information voter category and discover, as is actually easy for a person of intelligence, what the truth is.

We would have no deficit as at present if GW Bush had not cut taxes for the very most rich and biggest corporations and the Republicans refused and blocked their reinstatement. There is much information available on the Internet confirming this. For instance read this article based upon Warren Buffet's publicly stated opinions. http://www.thestreet.com/story/11221086 ... en=GOOGLEN

There is blame enough to go around among all of the politicians but the ideologues are the Tea Baggers. I suggest that you spend the necessary time to read the article pointed out earlier rather than deny the situation out of lack of information. it may be beyond your patience but is in no way beyond your capacity to undersand. Spending beyond ones means is not sound policy. But committing to spending while having the money income and then cancelling the income by cancelling the taxes that would have provided it is a still more unsound policy. That was what was done by Republicans on the pretext that it would allow more job creation by corporations and the rich who own them. This has been promised more than once and has failed to occur each time. The beneficiaries of this false concept have simply said 'thank you' and put the money saved in taxes in their pockets. Have you not noticed the fact that in this past period of major recession, the Big Banks and their Wall Street subsidiaries or owners, the Big Corporations and especially Big Oil and Big Business in general have made millions and billions in profits while paying relatively little to no taxes. It is widely documented if you would only pay attention. The concocted crisis of the recent past was contrived based upon the failure of the ideologues of the Tea Baggers to fulfill their oaths of office to support the Constitution and had nothing to do with either levying new taxes as such nor creating more debt than as had already been authorized. Specifically the malfeasance of the Tea Baggers was as follows.

This so called debt crisis was entirely a fabricated thing where the Tea Party members, Tea Baggers as I prefer, deliberately violated their oaths of office, ignoring their responsibility under the provisions of the Constitution. Specifically the 14th Amendment which states in its 4th paragraph that "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned." In addition, they were specifically as Congress given the power to carry out this responsibility in the 5th paragraph following as "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." Their failure to do so was entirely a matter of their own decision as ideologues. They placed their wilfulness and desire to cause disruption above logic, reasonableness and the facts of the situation and their oaths and responsibilities as members of congress. Flat out, pure and simple ideology over oaths of office and legality. The very definition of ideologues. They could have brought down the economy of the United States and then the world by their intransigence and if you noticed, claimed to not care.

If you noticed anything of world reaction it was primarily disbelief that the American congress could be so flagrantly stupid as to risk the stability of the world society to make parochial points in local politics. They kept waiting for the adults to step in and instead, brinksmanship continued. While we did not default, we got some of the same effect as the world will never have the same trust in our intelligent management of our own affairs. We may loose the confidence of other governments and our position as the accepted reserve currency of the world. If we loose the confidence of other governments we loose the market for our debts and will be forced into default if we do not get our heads on straight and our house in order. Not by cutting what we do and reneging on debts acquired but failing to balance this against taxes required to balance the budget based upon false information promulgated by those who will benefit from it. Who do you think owns the world news organizations and manages their messages for the benefit of those owners: a hand full of multi billionaires!

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:46 pm 
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It isn't about raising taxes. It's about correcting the idiotic move of EVER lowering taxes on the richest of the rich. They don't pay their share and most of them know it and are willing to pay more, but the corporations that would be effected are blocking the much needed procedure to reinstate the proper taxes for them. The Koch bros. can be heartily thanked for that and they would love nothing more than a nation of brown shirts.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:18 pm 
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I see your point a little better now Ted. I agree with you that the capital gains tax rates should go back to what they were before the tax cuts for the top 2 percent of Americans.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:02 pm 
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It is not the top 2 percent that is the problem. It is the less than 1,000 multi billionaires that are the problem. Look at this web site that seems to have this well documented. http://www.lcurve.org/index.html

To quote from this site:
Quote:
The top one percent are now estimated to own between forty and fifty percent of the nation's wealth, more than the combined wealth of the bottom 95%
Another quotation from that site:
Quote:
In March 2006 Forbes reported 793 billionaires in the US with combined net worth of $2.6 trillion. In March 2007 Forbes reported 946 billionaires in the US with combined net worth of $3.5 trillion. That is a 1-year increase of 19% in the number of billionaires and an increase of 35% in their net worth during a time of increasing poverty. Severe poverty is at its highest point in three decades.
Those are so wealthy that they happen to own the nations media, some outright. They make available what information they wish and conceal what they wish. This is the source of media bias.

Read the link above to an article based upon Warren Buffet's testimony as noted earlier and the link repeated here. http://www.thestreet.com/story/11221086 ... en=GOOGLEN

But this is not what I am trying to bring to your attention at present. That presently is what they are doing to the thinking of those referred to as low information voters. Mass manipulation of those easily manipulated because they do not pay attention, they are susceptible to simple minded slogans such as no more taxes and liable to vote against their own interests because they cannot think clearly and do not delve deeply enough to vote their own interests. I am trying to get those with the intelligence to do better, to check this out and spread the word. A common quotation is given as: All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. I cannot find an authoritative origin for this and similar phrases. But if those of us who can understand what is going on throw up our hands on the basis that it is too late or there are no good politicians to vote for, then the ideologues will have won because they control the media and will get out the vote of low information voters. Good men and women doing nothing by failing to vote against ideologues in the coming elections, no matter what is left in the field of candidates, will find themselves ruled by those ideologues. Traditional politicians might sell out to a high bidder but an ideologue makes no compromises and takes no prisoners. If they decide on a scorched earth policy in the sense of taking down the country, then they will happily do so as the Tea Baggers almost did just recently.

This being a virtual reality never suggests or justifies that we should not act as if it is totally 'real' and ignore an opportunity to produce better results than present probabilities and trends indicate. Both based upon our Intent and upon taking the responsibility to understand and vote for better outcomes.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Ted,

I send this link to my husband, and he asked me to say 'thank you'. He knows, that I never would look for anything about politics. ;)

Lena

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