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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:33 pm 
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I am part way through book 2 and so far I enjoy and can conceptually agree with many of the points made in the book. I have one issue though and I am curious what others think. Campbell makes the assertion that AUM does not really care much about us and we are, according to AUM, akin what we would think of as bacteria in our intestines. He goes on to state that anyone who thinks they have a direct relationship to AUM is basically full of themselves and believes they are much more important than they really are in AUM's eyes.

While I can understand these assertions I don't necessarily agree with them due to a couple of reasons; 1) Since, also as Campbell claims, we can't possibly conceive or even understand AUM since it is so beyond our grasp, then he is basically asserting that he also can't possibly conceive to know enough about AUM to assert that "it" has no direct relationship to us since there is no way to know this. perhaps having millions of direct links to individual consciousnesses is very simple to AUM and not beyond possibility at all. This same argument goes against Campbell's assertion that AUM in no way can have "human like" perceptions. We simply do not know, and can't possibly know if we accept Campbell's claim that AUM is beyond our understanding. 2) I also disagree with Campbell's, claim, that anyone who believes they have a direct relationship with AUM must be full of themselves. I am a very humble person and I can share a few pretty amazing examples of where it is hard to refute that I had some divine intervention / communication. I am sure there are others who can share similar examples. Are we all just "full of ourselves" and think we are more important than we are? Not necessarily and to assert so is to raise one opinion to one that is more important than any other opinion on this matter

I would like to see what others think of this topic and would especially love to know how Campbell would respond.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:59 am 
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We prefer to refer to Tom Campbell here as Tom rather than Campbell. In academic work, one refers to authors by their last name, but we are not academics in a formal situation. Tom is more friendly.

Regarding a personal relationship to AUM, Tom is basically pointing out what he observes. Do you after all have a personal relationship to each of the cells of your own body or to each of the neurons in your own brain as perhaps a better analogy. But there is individual guidance and a hierarchy of management with an organized relationship to provide guidance, if they pay attention, to incarnated IUOCs here in PMR. Beginners typically are guided in groups and probably can't pay attention anyway. As you become more advanced, you are more likely to be able to make use of guidance and you may well have more than one guide as you advance in your development. But then it is not likely that you have direct contact in the form of a verbal conversation.

Another way to look at is to consider what mystics have said over the ages. Recognizing that they are a part of God, as are all other IUOCs, is common, in line with Tom's statement that the Union of all IUOCs is literally AUM. Think of perhaps being one of the neurons in God's brain. Feeling that they have a person to person relationship is not common. They tend to not have large ego positions staked out. It goes more like, as Hildegard von Bingen stated it, "I am a feather on the Breath of God". Or perhaps "I exist only to serve".

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:57 am 
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You make some good points, Iseeker2. But I agree with Ted. You would need to accept that Tom calls it from his own experience.

Your experience may differ, but can you be sure you're not simply in touch with your own higher self or some other angelic NPMR entity?

If AUM truly cared about PMR (and by caring, I mean as we might save a butterfly from buffeting against the greenhouse glass), I guess there would be less s*** hitting the fan, eh?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:25 am 
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1seeker2 - Welcome to the forum. Perhaps you could copy and paste some of the passages that you are talking about.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:23 pm 
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If you all kept in mind that Tom has explained that it takes the high intensity of a PMR to reduce entropy and train our Quality of Consciousness to higher levels through multiple incarnations, perhaps you could then understand that AUM would be doing us no favors by making everything in a PMR to flow as sweetness and light. We might then as well have 'stood in bed' as in remaining in NPMR where there is not such high intensity and we do not die. That does not produce gain as enhancing our QOC and there is conflict there as well as here but just not as intense. And remember that PMR is a Virtual Reality. As the Buddha said millennia ago, our life of suffering is Illusion!

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:48 am 
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Thank you Ted for helping me socialize into the group norm. I will refer to Campbell as Tom going forward.

I appreciate the responses from various folks on this issue. I suppose this is my main confusion; If we accept what Tom describes based on his observation, my main question is how can his observation be claimed to be "true" due to his own limited vantage point (generally speaking)? To accept a hierarchy of "spiritual" guides based on the hierarchy of the human anatomy is to apply PMR rule sets to NPMR which according to Tom is not always applicable. Why would it be applicable in this instance and not others? Therefore how can we make a claim that any direct communication we might get from beyond is not from AUM directly? I don't think we can make this claim as the one absolute truth.

As far as sh** hitting the fan, it makes sense to me Tom's point that this is a learning lab and the human race is being put to the test and Ted reiterated above.

I am sorry I can't provide quotes easily as I am listening to the audio book and don't have a hard copy on hand.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:14 pm 
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Seeker wrote:I appreciate the responses from various folks on this issue. I suppose this is my main confusion; If we accept what Tom describes based on his observation, my main question is how can his observation be claimed to be "true" due to his own limited vantage point (generally speaking)?


Tom makes no such claims and specifically says to believe nothing which he says but to figure it out for yourself. To make your own determination of what might be true. You have seen to little of the information available which would have answered your questions if pursued further. Personally, I have observed so much for myself which does match what Tom has to say and fitting it into millennia of what has been said by so many others including Ancient Indian metaphysicians and mystics who described Indra's Net (perfect match to IUOCs communicating over the RWW) to the Buddha who described our PMR existence as suffering as Illusion (a Virtual Reality) that I consider it to be true for my own reasons.
To accept a hierarchy of "spiritual" guides based on the hierarchy of the human anatomy is to apply PMR rule sets to NPMR which according to Tom is not always applicable. Why would it be applicable in this instance and not others?
Have you ever heard of a metaphor? You are not understanding what is being said here.
Therefore how can we make a claim that any direct communication we might get from beyond is not from AUM directly? I don't think we can make this claim as the one absolute truth.
Think what ever you wish. You have free will. But there are long historical records of people having guides and much discussion of how NPMR avatars, when sufficiently advanced and reliable and specifically more advanced than those who they guide, do provide guidance to PMR avatars. There is a lot of discussion with much more detail of this which it is not convenient to repeat fully here. Now if you understood more clearly what AUM is as the Union of all IUOCs, you would clearly see that if you did hear from "AUM", you would have to be hearing from AUM through one or more IUOCs who prepared that message and sent it to you over the RWW. That is to you as your PMR avatar as part of the messaging that places you into and experiencing PMR. AUM does what AUM does and delegates the lower level activities to groups of IUOC who function as The Big Computer. And then there is the management level avatars in NPMR. There may be more and higher levels of management that Tom says nothing about or in fact may know nothing about or who may not exist as I know nothing about them either. We know what we know, tell you about it as best we can, explain it as best we can and what you do with it is up to you.

Ted


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:32 pm 
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A point , that I would like to insert, in this thread : Tom, has stated, a few times at least, [ and at this moment, I don't remember his "exact" words, but I got his intent /the data he was conveying ] he said, if you want to the latest and greatest, on his BT, "watch the video ,interviews, and listen to his web audio interviews, because , even he/Tom's perception of the model, is expanding, and you can hear some of his newly perceived perspectives,- because, evolution - moving forward, more data/info, seeing aspects, with deeper insights as one is evolving.

The Book, is not meant to be a " carved in stone", "Once and for all, permanent, the law stands, this is the only way it will ever be", it is a model, that has the highest form of clarity, for humans in this PMR , with "relativity" to our day and age of technology, that serves as a means to have some way to even talk about - NPMR. If the fundamental process of evolution, was only for the physical form within PMR, and did not apply to all things, forms, thought processing & etc., then Tom , would be like all the other religions in the world today, and he would have a contradiction , within his own TOE.

Evolution, is the fundamental causality, for any movement, thought/decision, within the cycle of mere existence, in any form. I would say that " the fundamental, process of evolution", is more than an aspect, of reality, it is the catalyst , that is cause for any measureable change, and probably, "de-evolution", could fit in with -change, movement & etc.

I, am reading the Book, again and again and in parts. After having read the Book, I find it more beneficial, profitable, added perceptibility, to Tom's , model, when hearing him , live, on video or audio. I can, only imagine, how great it would be, to be in person, real time, as in a work shop , conference & etc., with Tom

There is an irony here - " law and grace", if you are graceful, in dealing with life's, issues, and living in love;the law,- [ technical aspects of the model ], is not the greater, of the two - technical knowledge vs experiential interacting with others , from your deepest intuition-being level, without knowing what is the proper technical [ law ], to obey, is grace. To obey, or be overly concerned with the rules/law/technical aspects, of the model, is a causality of our human avatar, and it's ego.

I am not saying that studying the model, discussing its aspects, and technical sides, is in any way, ego driven, I am saying this : We are in this PMR, in the form of a human avatar, for interacting, per the rule sets, including its randomness, uncertainties, the human characteristics, & etc.,; for experiencing, interactively with other IUOC's in their different "forms[which are all virtual] , for a means of evolving our core being, - what ever that is.

We call it IUOC ,higher self, soul, over soul, spirit, core being, entity, and so on, and these are all metaphors. Any data, in reference to the after life, NPMR, spirit, & etc., -is, are metaphors. Any form, is virtual, nothing is fundamental but consciousness, " Tom Campbell".

Tom is saying to most of us, "do the best you can", and do not harbor fear, and just deal with life gracefully. His live media, is where it is at, after one has read the Book. The book is dead knowledge, good knowledge, but not activity. Tom. in any, media or live, is real time life-activity, the now.

We use the Book, for reference, and explanations, from a PMR analogy & metaphors, to get some kind of a concept, while we are in our avatar form. We have to live and interact, to experience, the fundamental process of evolution ,
Mike


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