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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:46 pm 
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Tom’s answer: Things come into PMR reality based on a measurement by those in PMR reality. An observer in NPMR does not cause the PMR wave function to collapse to a physical particle or happening within PMR. Only an observer in PMR can do that. What is in the PMR database was actualized by a PMR happening or event.
If it is necessary for a PMR consciousness to collapse a wave funtion and, in my understanding, allow the rendering engine to render detail, could this be used as a test for some consciousness having observed something? For example, if, before we sent satellites to photograph the back side of the moon, Ingo Swann were to send his NPMR consciousness to observe, would there be a lack of detail because no PMR consciousness had collapsed the wave functions there to enable the rendering engine to render it in detail? Could this be used as a test to see if something has been observed? So if some PMR extraterrestrial had observed the back side of the moon, there would be detail. Could this concept be extrapolated to a generalized test where a remote viewer or OB experiencer were to view something that was known to NEVER have been observed before by any PMR consciousness and the results come up indistinct/fuzzy/unrendered and then have a PMR consciousness view it and have the RV/OB person check again and have greater detail?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Dickison,

The very first time that something previously unobserved is viewed or experienced, like the back side of the moon, it is provided in full detail, no fuzziness, etc. at least to the level that is appropriate to the method of viewing as naked eye, limited telescope or powerful telescope. If you are thinking of something that is lacking in detail and fuzzy to the naked eye because of extreme distance and then in sharp and full detail when viewed with an appropriate telescope, that is a matter of exactly what is being talked about in the way that the VRRE renders things. Nothing new will be there but it will be sharper and more understandable as to detail. Only those fractal levels which can be observed will be rendered. At a far distance and with the naked eye, only the larger scale fractal levels will be provided and they will be fuzzy as to details. Switch to a telescope and the smaller scale fractal levels that provide those details will be rendered so you now see the appropriate details.

Does this answer your question?

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:01 am 
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Does this answer your question?
Ted
I don't think I explained it properly. The reason I mentioned the BACK of the moon was because, before satellites, NO ONE had ever seen it, except perhaps extraterrestrials coming in to visit earth. No one on Earth had seen the back side of the moon as it's always turned away from us. So, with no consciousness having seen the details, would the details have been rendered to be stored in the big database and been able to be seen in detail by an NPMR consciousness (remote viewer or OB traveler)? Another related question is does the VRRE render back sides of objects when only the front side is known (the moon)? Or to take the confusion about the specificity of the moon out of the question, would some obscure object drifting in space between the stars that has NEVER been seen by any PMR consciousness be able to be seen in detail by an NPMR consciousness? According to my understanding it couldn't be seen in detail. But, if some UFO flew by it and it was observed by some "Zetans" then some "Ingo Swann" on Earth would be able to see it in detail, BUT ONLY IF it was observed by the Zetans or other PMR consciousness. The whole gist of the question though is to develop some testable aspect of the theory. If something could be thought of that no PMR consciousness has ever been able to influence, even robotically, photographically, by any instruments, then have a NPMR consciousness 'observe' it before and after a PMR consciousness has interacted with it. There should be a distinct difference in the before and after 'image' in terms of the level of detail. To me, this seems like something that can be tested.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:34 am 
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Is this the "if a tree fell in the woods" issue?
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Consciousness.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:43 am 
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No Bette, it is more complicated than that, I think.

Dickison, that comes to a very different question. You can't set up that kind of cross VR test and have it work. Some aspect of this VR which has never been observed before exists only in the probability structures within TBC. Someone 'visiting' cross VRs is perceiving based upon their 'home' VR rules. So you can't get a clear view in effect and probably not be able to trigger an observation in effect. So would be my understanding. I am sure that Tom would answer better than I. In NPMR, there are no bodies and no eyesight and so forth. You do not go places. You connect mentally to other IUOCs and exchange data. This data must be interpreted. They would have to interpret 'physical' situations based upon their retained information, memories, from their past incarnations to make these interpretations from memory as they would not presently have the senses under the rules that obtain to make those observations. You are not going to force an instantiation by this kind of observation. They don't have in the NPMR VR the kind of VRRE aspect of TBC to provide this kind of rendering. If it is in fact the same TBC, it is using a different program and rule set to process NPMR data than for PMR data.

We alternatively when visiting NPMR have to interpret things there based upon our PMR senses so we talk about 'going places' that don't really exist there. We interpret what we can do there in NPMR according to our PMR rule set and thus 'see' things that cannot really exist.

I am afraid that we cannot create that kind of NPMR/PMR cross check to prove anything.

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:10 am 
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Someone 'visiting' cross VRs is perceiving based upon their 'home' VR rules. So you can't get a clear view in effect and probably not be able to trigger an observation in effect.
I'm sorry if I keep on this, but so far I'm interpreting your responses as not exactly dealing with what I'm getting at due to my inability to express myself clearly. I'll try another approach. In remote viewing, which I assume is using NPMR consciousness, there are many cases where the viewer can draw almost the exact image of what they are 'seeing', but this is always someplace that has had PMR observations. What if the target had never been "seen" by ANY PMR consciousness, ever? It could be a deep cavern within the earth, moon, mars, etc. Say some spelunkers stumble across such a large cavern somewhere, but before they go in they ask "Ingo" to remote view it. Then they go in and see it with their PMR consciousness, thereby rendering it. Then upon exit they ask "Ingo" to view it again. Would there be a difference in the two viewing sessions' quality and detail?

Realize I'm only using concrete examples as examples, I don't really care whether it's a cavern or the back side of the moon. I understand that NPMR consciousness (NPMRC) does not trigger the wave function collapse/rendering, which is why the NPMR consciousness is used in part of the test. We have the NPMRC view something before and after PMRC causes the collapse. Because the remote viewers can get extremely good detail on targets that are known PMR, how would they do on unknown/unrendered PMR? My suspicion is that detail would increase after PMR contact with the target.

Thanks for your patience.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:29 am 
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Dickison,

One cannot use an NPMR consciousness for the reasons already stated. Let's try to clarify something. You, and everyone, are at base an Individuated Unit of Consciousness or IUOC which is a digital mind/consciousness residing in Consciousness Space. As your IUOC, you time share your functioning among 3 separate awarenesses, at least while you are 'alive' in PMR and experiencing the most common setup. Let us look at a repeating block of a vast number of CS state changes. I hope that you have this much in your background understanding. The very greatest number of those state changes is used by AUM/the One Consciousness as it connects your IUOC with other IUOCs in its merged, unified existence. We have no knowledge of what that Consciousness is like. Intermittently, if I remember the numbers right, at every 10^170 (10 to the power of 170) of those cycles a cycle or a few cycles is devoted to your IUOC experiencing consciousness of one state cycle of NPMR. These intermittent states devoted to NPMR are so fast that they appear to be continuous. After every 10^170 of those NPMR devoted cycles pass, we finally have one or a few state cycles devoted to creating one PMR cycle. Again, these PMR cycles are so fast that they appear continuous and PMR science cannot yet come anywhere near measuring 'time' at the rate at which it passes for us. This completes the total block of cycles.

Tom is the source for these relative times and I apologize if I have them in error. What matters now is the general picture. Tom is the only being that we have heard of who can, having so learned, who can share his individual consciousness between NPMR and PMR simultaneously. Most (all other?) people have no such ability to join their consciousnesses in effect or to even knowingly communicate with their NPMR consciousness.

What those different consciousnesses are that you are experiencing, not knowing about NPMR from here in PMR, are inherently separate and any knowledge one of another must be learned, acquired by effort. That NPMR consciousness means that you are connected for those CS state cycles to that NPMR VR data stream that provides that consciousness stream to you. That PMR consciousness means that you are connected for those CS state cycles to our very own PMR VR data stream. You can also add in additional cycles for additional PMRs for simultaneous PMR life experiences, again with no connection or knowledge of them. Each VR is established by an instance of (a) TBC. To provide each experience, that or those Big Computers create for you an appropriate data stream which is that particular VR stream of consciousness. To do so, it sends you signals from appropriate IUOCs that you are communicating with and other 'environmental' data that defines the VR. It applies a specific rule set for each VR and for PMRs, it applies what we have called the VRRE which takes the basic data out of the probability projection of the VR cycle by cycle and produces a rendered version specifically for you to place you in 'space' and provide all of your sensory inputs. That is what your experience of a VR is. Even your internal thoughts have to come to you over your input data stream. That is your consciousness and what you are and can be aware of.

You can however choose by your Intent to connect to another data stream and you are normally connected to various other data streams as in dreaming or in experiencing 'lessons' provided for your development. You can also choose to tap into the/an NPMR data stream at some place you choose or is chosen for you. When you cross connect that way, your perceptions are still subject to the same base rule set of the 'native' consciousness stream in which you are normally immersed. So if you visit NPMR from here as a PMR 'native', you have to experience it by interpreting the NPMR actuality as best you can through the PMR rule set. That leads to all kinds of misperceptions as to places and things, for instance visualizing classes sitting in a class room and meeting 'persons' with bodies and clothing like ours who interact with you. And in reverse, an NPMR 'native' visiting the PMR VR data stream does not have the rule set active within TBC for that cycle to 'render' the PMR experience properly. It can only perceive the data stream as 'rendered' normally for NPMR which has minimalist environment at best and no way of rendering bodies and things.

Does this finally clarify why as the saying goes, you can't get there from here?

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:16 am 
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I apparently have some presuppositions I need to clear out. Please bear with me while I try to identify the culprit.
One cannot use an NPMR consciousness for the reasons already stated...
Some aspect of this VR which has never been observed before exists only in the probability structures within TBC
I agree with this point which is implied in what I'm asking.
So you can't get a clear view
I disagree with this point since remote viewers have shown they can get clear views of the target. Robert Monroe got clear views in his experiences. Not all views were clear, but some were. Perhaps this is the culprit. I'm assuming remote viewers are using their NPMRC to get the things they view. Is this a valid assumption?
Someone 'visiting' cross VRs is perceiving based upon their 'home' VR rules. ...and probably not be able to trigger an observation in effect
I agree with this and it is implied in my question.
You do not go places. You connect mentally to other IUOCs and exchange data. This data must be interpreted.
I don't know about this one. It sure seems one's NPMR consciousness is going someplace in PMR. I had an OBE so realistic I didn't know it until someone told me I didn't do what I thought I did. In Robert Monroe's books he also describes situations where he thought he was in PMR because it was so realistic and only after his arm went through the wall did he realize otherwise. There are many descriptions of OBE people going places and seeing things in PMR that are later corroborated.

I realize there is no "place" to go in the VR sense, but my questions have all been relating to PMR as we experience it and as it CAN be experienced by an out-of-body experiencer.
In NPMR, there are no bodies and no eyesight and so forth.
I agree with that, but remote viewers and out-of-body experiencers are able to acquire accurate PMR 'visual' data somehow. The question I have about this, though, is are they detecting PMR as rendered by the PMR rendering engine or are they detecting a 'clone' of PMR in NPMR where the clone is rendered by a separate NPMR rendering engine? This could be the culprit. I'm assuming that remote viewers/out-of-body viewers are perceiving our PMR from their NPMR state. Are they? Is this the culprit?
You are not going to force an instantiation by this kind of observation.
Exactly! And that's implied in my question.
We interpret what we can do there in NPMR according to our PMR rule set and thus 'see' things that cannot really exist.
I agree, just as we now in PMR 'see' things that don't really exist, it's all virtual. But, experientially, I see in PMR. Experientially, remote viewers 'see' this PMR from NPMR. And this leads back to my original question, are they seeing only what's already been seen?

Ok, now where's the culprit?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:21 am 
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Dickison,

I think that this, where you said the following is the culprit:
Experientially, remote viewers 'see' this PMR from NPMR.
PMR based remote viewers do not see this PMR from NPMR. As described above, they see this PMR by disconnecting from the data stream that is based by TBC on where they are placed by the VR and instead connect to a data stream representing where they wish to view, at least as well as they are able to do so. If your skill is less and your Intent not fully clear, you may connect to a data stream that is less clear and you may interpret the data stream less well than you do your normal PMR data stream. Your simultaneous NPMR existence does not go to PMR and do this viewing for you. You go there yourself as your PMR consciousness stream and as you are not there in your body, you can do things like put your hand through a wall if you perceive your body there. It won't really be there as being visible to someone who is actually placed there. Remember Robert Monroe's daughter telling how off at college in her dorm room with her roommate asking "Daddy, are you there?" before getting undressed and ready for bed?

Early on I had an experience where I went out of my body, an OOBE, and saw this strange pattern of green and yellow before I went into darkness and then came out of it. I finally realized that the strange pattern was the details of the weave of the sofa upon which I had been lying seen very close and that I went OOB through the back of the sofa, getting stuck part way. I had some basic but unclear idea of seeing the internals of the structure of the sofa. From any distance, the sofa looked basically green and only when close enough to the surface could you see the details of the weave to see the combination of green and yellow threads.

See if this is not the basis of the misunderstanding. You see what you can see and as well as you can see it as yourself, merely connecting to a data stream representing somewhere else than where the VR places your actual body.

Ted


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:32 am 
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Dickison, it may be that your question arise from a slightly incorrect view on "wave function collapse" and how it relates to detail and probability.

No, such test is not possible.

When something has never been rendered before in detail, the detail still exists as a probability distribution. If the RV'er was to request more detail, he would get it based on some probability distribution. The RV'er might see something unlikely, depending on the specifics of the intent.

The PMR observation that renders something in detail only picks out one of the several "threads" from the probability distribution, which is why there is no distinct difference in before and after in terms of detail.

Any RV'er also risk getting data from the unactualized past database, and interpret that is "actual". As I see no realistic way for a RV'er to distinguish between data that has before been actualized (in PMR) and data that has not been, there is no reliable way to differ between what is observed and unobserved.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:40 am 
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Dickison wrote: I agree with that, but remote viewers and out-of-body experiencers are able to acquire accurate PMR 'visual' data somehow. The question I have about this, though, is are they detecting PMR as rendered by the PMR rendering engine or are they detecting a 'clone' of PMR in NPMR where the clone is rendered by a separate NPMR rendering engine? This could be the culprit. I'm assuming that remote viewers/out-of-body viewers are perceiving our PMR from their NPMR state. Are they? Is this the culprit?
You could call it a clone. They are accessing data from the historical or future-databases from TBC. They are receiving the data and interpreting it using their PMR experience base, because PMR is their base reality as long as they are "alive" in PMR.

The accuracy of the data depends on what type of data they are getting from the databases. Are they getting data that has been actualized in the past, data that was never actualized in the past, data that is likely to be actualized in the future? All of this "actualizing" happens in the present moment, clock cycle after clock cycle, in PMR.

If the dark side of the moon (or whatever) had never been actualized before, and someone did a remote-view of it, then they would be pulling data out of the future-database. They would be getting data on what it COULD look like (within a certain probability), but is not guaranteed, until someone goes and looks from within PMR.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:05 pm 
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The assumption here is that all items in PMR only exist if a human collapses a wave function... it sounds like.

It may be that things other than humans can collapse wave functions.

My intuition tells me that the far side of the moon was collapsed into its present form before physical humans, or even the air-borm Bob Monroe, ever gazed at the thing.

Even if Shirley MacClaine managed to board a UFO and be the first to go sailing round the far side, it still would 've been more or less 'just a buncha rocks'.

-Just my take-

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Any conscious entity collapses the wave function within the limits of the fractal levels which it is capable of perceiving. We tend to simplify our phrasing by not specifically including all conscious entities with connected IUOCs to provide their decisions and consciousness. The far side of the moon had its same probability all along. If some conscious entity had made an observation, whether it flew in from Arcturus or crawled out from under a rock, it would have collapsed the wave function if it had a connected IUOC. If it was not conscious, it was part of the rendering of the VR and would not cause a collapse . . .

Ted


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