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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:37 am 
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Hi,

First of all I would like to state that I have not read MBT yet, only parts of it on the computer, posts by the author here, and other posts in the forums. I will buy it as soon as I can, as I have a lot of books to read yet. I am from Brasil and am 21 years old. The title of the thread is somewhat misleading, as I am dealing here with psi phenomena: Overcoming materialism has nothing to do with psi phenomena whatsoever, because you can be spiritual without believing in psi and, maybe, even materialist and believing in psi, altough I find it a little harder. But If I put "overcoming disbelief in psi phenomena" in the title I was afraid people would keep telling me you should not believe in anything, etc... and not answer the questions.

Let me begin by telling you my story: Brought up as a protestant, I believed in god, miracles of jesus, all sorts of stories from the bible, angels, heaven and hell, etc...

Then I started questioning it all, went trough a period of agnosticism, of atheism, alternating between the two and then settled for extreme materialism and atheism, the "everything is quackery and BS" type. But even that way I was always prone to mysticism, even if only in "feeling". As a child, I loved horror movies and everything having to do with paranormal. It excited me beyond belief.

After reading the book Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson I started changing, and I was amazed to understand that serious studies on ancient topics such as Magic (that fascinates me to this day) existed. Since then I read a lot about magic and other related stuff, and almost started believing in the paranormal. Today I am in no ways a materialist and I abhor that kind of thinking for what I became after I limited myself to it. I simply cannot stand the notion that our consciousness are closed systems that do not affect the world other than using phyisical means. Of course, I am aware that, even if psi phenomena did not exist the capacities of the mind are extremely great and can affect reality in sutil ways like a look, facial expression, movement, extremely fast non-verbal communication etc... but none of that is so impressive as PK, out of body collecting of information, killing a person from a distance, influencing people from a distance, etc...

The problem is: I find it extremely hard to believe such things occur, even tough I sincerely want to believe, and it would be the most awesome stuff for me, because even if it never happened to me personally (the only thing that happened to me were odd syncrhonicities) I could live assured the world was not as mechanical as I thought.

I still live in a struggle between pure materialism, everything is bullshit, nothing exists world-view, and the magic, clairvoyance, astral projection to REAL places is true world-view.

I am in no ways trying to insult the author or anyone, when I say I cannot believe that he retrieved information by non phyisical means as he states (on the robert monroe institute and possibly in other occasions). Not because I think he is a liar, but because it is too hard for me. I feel like I am being tricked, or deluded to believe in fantasies and that is the last thing I want. On the other hand, deep inside me I feel those things can happen.

When I watched on youtube Thomas Campbell saying he knew a guy that got lottery numbers right before they came out, but when he tried to used them it did not work, I was like... that is total bullshit. Thomas Campbell himself said there is no morality in non-phyisical matter reality as he calls it, when he talked about voodoo, so why hitting right lottery numbers should be "forbidden"? Again, I am sincerely not trying to insult anyone.

My intentions are three: First, to tell this story and be open to any comments from the people that read it, and advice. I realize the best way is to go about living our lives as if we did not know the answer, and that life should be good as it is, but people are different, to each one his own, and this question is important to me. You would not tell a phyisicist to not question if such and such thing is that way or not, or any other researcher. Oddly, people do not seem to find it bad to say for people researching these matters I talked about to "give up and go on with your life, it should be good as it is, phenomena being real or not". And finally, if you can sincerely say that the existence of impressive phenomena that blur all the previous limits (from a materialist point of view) and can bring about new hope, meaning, and sensation will not alter your life in any way, I can only respectfully disagree.

Second: To know if anyone else has gone trough this (there is almost never a day when I do not wonder if those things are true or not) and has some advice if they got over it, how did they do it, and if they believed the phenomena or ended up disbelieving it.

Third: What books can I read endorsing the subject that are not deluding, like manipulating data? Has anyone ever read the book "The trickster and the paranormal"? It seems very technical.

Many thanks for those who read it all and I wish to read your opinions.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Welcome to the board. Much has been described here related to what you ask. Read around some more and learn to use the search function. Read Tom's books and know that many of us have experiences to tell us that someone who is very good at it could readily do what Tom describes. Many of us have and describe experiences that show us that the reality is as Tom Campbell describes. This includes someone getting the whole of a lottery sequence off by just one +/- first to last. Some people obviously do win. Chance winning is fine but using paranormal abilities is usually not permitted as not being of value to your development. There are threads here on all that you mention.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Hi ted,

I have been browsing and reading, but the posts I see mainly are from people who come here not believing in psi phenomena and come out still not believing, and people who already believe it and still do.

Even if I read all accounts of life changing experiences there is one problem - belief. How can I believe something I read or that others tell me? I have spoke to people online, as I do not know many people offline that had such experiences, that told me about this stuff: One even severely discouraged me to mess with occultism, and said one can easily (quote him) retrive information out of body with practice. One, member of an occult organization, did not tell anything, but said "Why should I tell of my experiences with magic if you would not believe me anyway?". Another, a guy who studies magic here in Brasil, said he had experiences with magic and out of body that indicated those phenomena many, many times.

But that still does not convince me... entirely. There's just so much quackery, so many lies in this field... and one thing that discourages me are intelligent, sincere people, even those who follow traditional religions, that do not believe this. The truth is, I'm already immersed in this world-view and I act like if it is true... just I'm not 100% sure and sometimes I feel like I'm deluding myself and that would be really sad, both for the time wasted and worse, the returning of a mechanical world. I know it seems childish to think the world is worst without those phenomena, but it's not only the phenomena itself, but the possiblities and new realities and perspectives it brings.

If I discover one day that this is all true, I would dedicate a lot of time to contact extra-dimensional entities, the jinn or whatever you wanna call it... as I find that very interesting. The videos below fascinate me:

http://www.gnosisprimordial.com/?p=398
This one is self explanatory

http://www.gnosisprimordial.com/?p=198
This one shows Predator as a kind of super spiritual extra dimensional being capable of having real existence, how amazing would that be?

http://www.gnosisprimordial.com/?p=324
This one has all to do with my questions: Demons are metaphors, ha ha...

http://www.gnosisprimordial.com/?p=315
The warriors of the Spirit are destructors of the impure...

Anyway the above videos I'm sharing just for fun and for the impact they had on me.
I previously shared a text, but I erased it and replaced it with videos.

Thanks for your response, I will now read the other responses and keep in mind what you said, Ted, and I look foward to exploring my big toe soon.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:08 pm 
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I do not speak non-English languages but the point of those videos and that approach are obvious and nothing that you will find us advocating to you as being real or within our experience here. We do not advocate 'black magic', Voodoo, or negative entities here. I doubt if those things on that site are more than entertainment. Tom Campbell writes of combating some of it, originating in Africa, in his book and here. What we report here are some discussing their experiences in Non Physical Material Reality but those are all subjective. Others report After Death Contacts and some have had Near Death Experiences. Many just experience things that could not happen in a true Physical Matter Reality as this purports to be but could readily occur in a Virtual Reality as we understand this to be.

Tom's books are nothing like that web site and provide much information at a relative beginners level about how this reality works, how did consciousness arise, how did we become conscious. It will be very tame and boring if your goal is information and entertainment such as is on that web site you linked to. It is however cutting edge in describing what science is beginning to discover in its explorations and provides a general description within which those discoveries can fit as they are made. We are at present in the process societally of a so called paradigm shift away from scientific belief in pure materialism back to the understanding that Consciousness is the underlying reality, just as espoused by ancient Hindu metaphysicians and the Buddha. Tom's books are written based upon science as Tom Campbell is an applied physicist, now retired after an extensive career in the world of modern physics and digital technology.

You are not at all unwelcome here but don't waste time looking for anything like what is on that web site that you linked to if that is what you seek.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:41 pm 
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I am aware of that. Let me explain: First of all, if the website aroused any curiosity as to the content, the author has a book online in english http://theforbiddenreligion.com . I quoted from that text before deciding to post the videos, because the text was long. It was the chapter about initiation in the sleep, where he describes how he was "initiated" in his sleep and received a kind of drilling to the head and some more freaky stuff. Anyway, about the videos. First, the reason I posted them: The author of the website is extremely learned in esoteric and occult subjects. He is the owner of the Biblioteca Esoterica herrou aragon, with rare books in spanish, english, french and german on esoteric topics and some more. He is also a psychologist, and that gives a clue to the videos.

The videos are meant to be taken in a symbolic way, and they are made to shake up and awaken the "spirit" of the one who sees it: For some, we are in the era of Kali-Yuga and the videos are in accord with this. They come from a perspective of working with what is at hand, the base instincts (aggression, lust, etc.) upward. There is, for example, another video that is very telling, from blade runner: A part when a character is interviwed and the guy asks him about why he is not helping a turtle. Then the interviewer says: Tell me about your mother... and the interviewed answers: Let me tell you about my mother... then proceeds to shoot the interviewer. Now I never watched blade runner, but I do not believe the shooting in this scene is repeated three times, but it is in the video on the website. This is so for total impact. I never sutided Freud either, but I understand the freudian tones are very explicit and his intention is clear. In one of the predator videos the symbolism is also clear, when the last scene shown is the creature from the "spirit world" throwing a phallic-like projectile and drilling a hole in a solid wall. This is all meant to liberate the viewer, but I understand your concerns and I do not partake in black magic either. But I find the videos very impacting and am very drawn to them, as they provide a confrontational approach with the ugly realities of life.

I am saying that to explain the true meaning of the videos that should be interpreted mostly in a symbolic way. I say mostly because, for me, if the psi phenomena is real, then reality is limitless and demons who appear like the one in the video with the church might as well exist: I have read about UFOs who left real phyisical traces, like appearing in radars, and other kinds of psi phenomena that had real phyisical manifestations, like materialization. Plus in magical literature they say that entities really become manifest with invocation. So if a thing like magic and astral projection is true, for me, the extreme must also be true, the same way that a good bodybuilder will be able to do a lot of push ups, and bruce lee, an extreme example, did a lot of push ups with, if I remember correctly, only two fingers. So if I believed psi phenomena I would not dismiss it all as entertainment. Another example: A comic book artist may be a skilled artist, but Michellangelo or Da Vinci are extreme examples. The same may be true of magic and other-worldly entities. Specially with all the accounts along the ages of experiences with those creatures. A book that is not afraid to look ridiculous talking about those matters is The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot. Altough I have no reason to believe the author's claims that he was paranormal and objects materialized out of nowhere in his house, that he saw a bunch of people throw an umbrella on the ground and then that umbrella turned into a stick or something (I don't quite remember), I found it an interesting book. Have you ever read it? I would like to know your opinion of it.

As for the black arts: Don't worry, not only I do not do black arts, I know that my big toe is not about those subjects. I have an idea what the book is about. But hopefully it provides some advice for people willing to develop abilites such as astral projection?

We are at present in the process societally of a so called paradigm shift away from scientific belief in pure materialism back to the understanding that Consciousness is the underlying reality, just as espoused by ancient Hindu metaphysicians and the Buddha. Tom's books are written based upon science as Tom Campbell is an applied physicist, now retired after an extensive career in the world of modern physics and digital technology.

I am part of this shift, an interesting tough somewhat confusing and too specific (focused on the earth) website about this is metahistory.org

I said I do not practice the black arts but I like to study them and possibly will come in contact with them, but I am extremely against harm to innocent people in any ways, so don't worry. Also, in one of the videos predator kills the ones who were doing the black magic.

Thanks a lot for your thoughtful and sincere responses and for making me feel welcome.

PS:
Quote:
Chance winning is fine but using paranormal abilities is usually not permitted as not being of value to your development.
Permited by whom? And when he talked about voodoo on the forum, Thomas Campbell said that those abilities are neutral: They can be used for personal gain or not, so what you said puzzled me a bit. It is permited to torment others with black magic but not winning the lottery?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:18 pm 
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I think what you will find that Tom meant was that VooDoo practices are in themselves neutral but as they are used to injure or control others, they are not. I do not know personally what they include or their thinking but they are in general a part of the shamanic practices that have existed since we were hunter gatherers. Not all shaman were good guys. They just have a better reputation in general than VooDoo practitioners.

Your winning of the lottery can be controlled because you are in contact with guides and Consciousness Space whether you know it or not or perhaps more particularly that they are in contact with you. If no value to the system as a whole will result from your winning the lottery other than by chance, then your consciousness will simply be tweaked or the system tweaked so that you do not do so.

If anyone on the board has better knowledge of this, please step in and provide it.

Ted


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:42 pm 
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As I understand it Voodoo is used to manipulate other through Fear based on Belief in Voodoo. The victim needs to believe in it and know about the "curse" for it to work as I understand that which isn't a lot.

As I understand it Distance Healing is used to manipulate other through Love based energy and the target does not need to know or believe for it to work.

One is better than the other for other which is what is important.
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Bette

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:43 pm 
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Hi yogsototh and welcome.

First of all, calm down your mind, relax.

You will not get your answer by rushing through it.

Two simple things you can do, which would be a good start:

1. Unlearn what you have learned, put it all on "standby" until all the fragments can be used in relation to a solid framework. This is important to avoiding belief traps.
2. Read My Big TOE to get a solid model of reality, and a much bigger perspective to assess any future information you will stumble upon.

The answers to your specific questions are not important. What is important is the perspective of the person asking those questions. My Big TOE can as a model provide the perspective of which these questions would not need to be asked. This is what you are truly seeking, correct?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:11 am 
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Quote:

I said I do not practice the black arts but I like to study them and possibly will come in contact with them, but I am extremely against harm to innocent people in any ways, so don't worry. Also, in one of the videos predator kills the ones who were doing the black magic.

Thanks a lot for your thoughtful and sincere responses and for making me feel welcome.

You really really really don't want to come within a country mile of that shit.

It would be less worse to join up with one of those drug gangs that are destroying Mexico at present. Read up on them and see if you want any involvement with such-like.... the region of 'dark arts' is like the consciousness that permeates those groups, but on steroids and meth. See Hitler and the reality that he created. Is that what you want for your consciousness to be consuming (and ultimately to get consumed by) ?

Focus on where you need to go, why you are incarnating.

-Montana


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:58 am 
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Thanks for all posts

bette: it is neutral.

Sapientia: Yours is an advice I've read around here and one of the best: If I don't know if psi phenomena is real or not there is no meaning in keep questioning without any fruit: I must shed all my previous beliefs before investigating.
Quote:
My Big TOE can as a model provide the perspective of which these questions would not need to be asked. This is what you are truly seeking, correct?
Depends: I would like too get into the perspective from which those questions would not need to be asked because I found out that psi phenomena is real. If you get what I mean.

Montana: Let's get serious here: Drug trafficking from mexico, or from where I live, are extremely cruel individuals who practice burning of people alive, torture, mutilation, beheading, etc... this is not a matter to joke about, and I sincerely hope you're wise enough to know that messing with black arts is not nearly as dangerous as messing with those people. Honestly: Take 15 people that dealt with black arts and 15 who dealt with mexican drug dealers: Who do you think would be in more danger? I'm open minded, and I admit not knowing about the black arts, but I've never heard of people dealing with black magic get harmed in serious ways like people messing with drug dealers can end up (mutilated, beheaded, raped, crippled, etc...). Can a demon appear in front of you and behead you or punch you in the face? I need more information from you if you want to make your point...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:50 am 
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I wouldn't be surprised to find out "those people" already mess with that B.S. as in "Belief Systems" bullpoop to control minds because people are so gullible to what they have been raised to believe is "real."

If you are raised to not believe in the devil it's hard to make a deal with it then...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:04 pm 
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yogsototh,

I think that all of us have been politely feeling around, asking you questions, to find out what you were really asking about. We are satisfied that PSI phenomena are real, just not the PSI phenomena in movies and cults which appears to be your interest. Yes, we are aware that people have played around with these things throughout the ages, ever since the concepts were invented. People have been stoned as witches or warlocks and other people have been scared and abused because these fantasy beliefs exist. We believe that knowing the truth makes you immune to these fantasies. We believe that the nature of that truth of our reality, that it is a Virtual Reality, makes it possible for some people to create negative effects and abuse others. We believe that what Tom Campbell wrote about is the best explanation of the nature of reality existing at present, or at least this is the basis of this bulletin board, whether all members believe that or not. What we can offer you, and Tom offers you, is the cutting edge knowledge of the big picture as it tends to be called. We can do nothing more for you as we do not dabble in the so called, black arts, nor do we have any interest. In line with the purpose of this board, sincere questions will be answered to the best of our ability, but advocacy of what you appear to be interested in will ultimately not be permitted here.

Ted as Administrator


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:42 pm 
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There's no advocacy in this thread. The confusion was only generated by the posting of the videos, which are symbolic as I explained. I agree with your position to forbid encouragement of black magic, if you mean only black magic made to harm others, as forbidding the study of magic not made to harm others but for pesonal gain, development and understanding is a little irrational in my view. As for the phenomena of "cults", I'll have to politely disagree: As I stated, I do not know if psi phenomena is real or not, but if I find out only 1 kind of phenomena is real I will have to reshape my whole philosophy and, being incredibly difficult that only one kind of psi phenomena is real and others told by the history of mankind are not, I would believe in a lot of them, like levitation and killing a person from a distance, materialization of objects, etc... Sorry if I'm confusing, because english being my second language may limit our understanding of each other. I hope I'm making myself clear.

I understood your position about the thread, that is, MBT offers a perspective that for you personally and for other members helps validate psi phenomena.

I'm open to more responses about my original posting, and I gave thought to all who posted here and their opinions.

I'm a guy who enjoys reading and I have a ton of books to read now. But I'm definetly buying MBT at the most in Christmas. Unfortunately it takes time to arrive here in Brasil, like 1 month or more, so in february probably I will have it. Considering the massive size of book and amount of experience and reflection and meditation it will be a long journey. I will probably acquire the two dvds as well.

To sum up: Yes, undeniably I'm interested in black magic (not to harm innocents) as I am in other forms of magic, in psi phenomena, in entheogens, extra-corporeal intelligences and a lot of other topics. No, I do not wish to promote black magic here, only discussions about the nature of reality and other questions.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:03 pm 
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There are plenty of websites devoted to black magic and so on, so, if that is where you want go, they are there for you to explore.

My original advice stands, but if you decide to proceed in that direction, go real easy.

When querying data in NPMR, there is a way, hard to describe, where you sort of gingerly reach out with just a filament of sensibility and just barely graze the data, and in this gingerly manner you can get a quick early feel of whether you want to open to that data or not.

-Montana


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:37 pm 
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yogsototh,

You do not have to wait until you have the physical books to begin reading. Tom has made the full book text available on Books.Google. Here is the link. http://books.google.com/books?id=6To090 ... &q&f=false I still suggest that you purchase the books for purposes of making notations and noting questions as you go reading along. Most people find that they end up reading the books multiple times as each succeeding time you have a better foundation to understand what was not clear the first time. For most everyone, these books make for a radical reorientation in their thinking and understanding of the nature of reality and their self within it. Tom wants them to be available to anyone who needs them. Still at the same time, while he does not make any money on the books he sells at present, but rather undergoes an expense, it would be nice to reach the point at which he did so in order to be able to do more on the video and lecture side.

I hope that you find it of value to 'be' here. You have too much ability to be lost to the 'dark side'.

Ted


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