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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:10 pm 
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I am incredibly inspired by the things Charles Manson says. The vast majority of people dismiss him without ever hearing him speak. I would suggest listening to one of his interviews on youtube and pretending you haven't heard of him before (i.e. be Open Minded). The media can make a devil out of anyone. Now I am not defending any of his SUPPOSED actions, I am just defending how much wisdom he appears to have, and how many things he says that are similar to MBT. Too many similarities to mention here. I would just hope you can put down what you THINK and ASSUME you know about the man, and let him speak for himself. You might be surprised!

If just one person gets half as inspired from one of his interviews as I did, then this post was worth it. (although he is so unpopular I might get this taken down before they get a chance. )
Granted some interviews are better than others. I like the ones that were done with Geraldo, Charlie Rose, Tom Snyder, and Penny Daniels. I have never watched the one with Ron Reagan Jr. or whatever because Charles obviously seems drugged.

Here is a taste of one if you feel so inclined:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBH6U8Mf ... detailpage

Nathan

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Well do you, don't you want me to love you?
i'm coming down fast, but i'm miles above you!
Tell me, tell me, tell me, come on tell me the answer!
Well, you may be a lover,but you aint no dancer....


Last edited by yeahboy on Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:47 pm 
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Charlie Manson sounds very much like the psychotic that his life proved him to be. I do not know what you can imagine in his ramblings that is at all like what Tom has to say. He evades making any clear answers to the questions. He constantly side tracks into unrelated material.

You might want to look at this book available to read in part on Google books. Manson in his own words by Nuel Emmons and Charles Manson: http://books.google.com/books?id=pl3KHf ... CFcQ6AEwBQ This particular link is to his psychiatric diagnosis. Here is that snip from this book.
MansonsDiagnosis.JPG
MansonsDiagnosis.JPG [ 53.5 KiB | Viewed 6812 times ]
Another very significant snip from this book shows Charles Manson's manipulative power. It explains much about how he was able to manipulate female members of his 'family'.
MansonsManipulativeTalent.JPG
MansonsManipulativeTalent.JPG [ 189.31 KiB | Viewed 6812 times ]
I seriously suggest that you rethink your opinion of Charles Manson. He is very good at manipulation of others.

Ted


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:07 pm 
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Hello Ted!

Thank you so much for letting me keep this up! That was very nice of you, even though you disagree. :-)

I guess all I can say is you either feel Charlie or you don't. It is the same data but it can be interpreted completely differently depending on who you are. For instance when you put that part about Charles saying he agrees that he is paranoid, I found that awesome while some would be nodding and saying he is "psychotic". To me I hear him saying that he has gone so deep into meditation that he has lost any connection with his false identity, his ego, and he knows that he is "a thousand faces"-- he is a microcosm of the whole. He knows that any personality he has isn't him, so he play acts many people.

That part about him dealing with the woman is unfortunate, however that book mention is steering away from my original intent of only listening to what he is saying directly in interviews, not a written account about what did or did not happen. That book written by someone other than Charles isn't what my focus is. I know it claims to be his own words but it still isn't the same as watching him speak, which is what I am interested in. A whole host of people speak for Manson, but I don't really listen to them much. My only interest was in the interviews on youtube themselves, not a book.

Just watching him, I get the sense that he is completely genuine and telling the truth. It's in his body language, in his whole energy. For instance if you watched the beginning of the Charlie Rose interview where Rose asks him "What do you think?", and Manson replies "Everything. Nothing." Just that nonchalance of saying something so profound is amazing to me. I took that as him saying his mind is in point consciousness, so on the one hand he is thinking absolutely nothing, he is the Void; empty. At the same time he is everything because he knows he is connected to all. Consciousness is One. He talks about feeling the trees growing outside. See, 99% of people won't find that amazing, but a couple will. That is why I say you either feel it or you don't. It is more than just his words. I stressed watching one of those interviews while suspending what the media for decades has force fed you to believe about him. If you watch it with a closed mind and thinking the whole time that "this man is a monster" how could you expect to actually hear anything he says? Did you watch any of those interviews I mentioned?

And yes I still see correlations between Charles and MBT as far as it being obvious to me that Manson has directly experienced the larger reality. The question is, do you believe he is being truthful. I think he is so hated because he is an unapologetic individual who is completely outside of our culture. That is why I like him so much because those individuals are rarer than rare.

Anyway Ted that is only my opinion. Maybe when I am not feeling so lazy I will try and give specific quotes from Manson that I think are directly applicable to MBT concepts. However it is pretty clear that we won't find any common ground on this issue. That is ok, I am used to standing alone.

"I don't choose wisely always. And yet, I'm committed." - Bill Hicks

Nathan

_________________
Well do you, don't you want me to love you?
i'm coming down fast, but i'm miles above you!
Tell me, tell me, tell me, come on tell me the answer!
Well, you may be a lover,but you aint no dancer....


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:20 pm 
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You are clearly supplying the content that is positive in your interpretation of what Manson has to say. Manson is stating nothing in regards to point consciousness when he responds "Everything, Nothing". You are supplying that in your interpretation. I'm sure that Dylan did not have Manson in mind when he wrote and sang about someone that they could "take the dark out of the night time and paint the day time black". However Manson does have that type of skill at manipulation and you have been susceptible to it in your reaction to him. That he has this kind of skill is apparent in this nearly instantaneous 'seduction' of the young woman referred to in the second snippet from the book. In the circumstances she should have been fully alert against anything that he might do but she still let herself be manipulated in this way.

He could seduce his followers into believing in him. That is just the kind of seduction demonstrated in this clip that he pulled on his followers and they did not have the ability to take what he said and pick out the evil aspects of it and joined him in his psychotic acting out. As Tom points out, you must be open minded but skeptical. You might listen to something that an NPMR entity tells you but you must also evaluate it against all else that you know. This should show you the falsity when someone gives you good reasons, so it sounds, to justify bad behavior in terms of interacting so that you remove the free will of another with whom you interact. Remember that Manson and his followers murdered people and very brutally. Where can you find justification for that, either in MBT, in anything that Tom ever said or even in your simple society based morality?

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:36 am 
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I read through Nathan's thoughts carefully and admire his open mindedness and courage, I don't think many people would post on something so controversial. I believe although Tom Campbell and Charles Manson have chosen very different paths, I do believe the same method is needed to hear what both of them have to say.

Nathan tried to remind us that being trapped by our prior belief systems allows us no freedom to enter into the new. No new ideas, no new concepts, and no new advice. In other words, if we were to always be restricted to our human nature close minded way of thinking, Tom's theory on everything could also be viewed as "psychotic" just the same as written, "Charlie Manson sounds very much like the psychotic that his life proved him to be." Just as Nathan pointed out, he was already shut out and not heard even in Nathan's posts because of prior bias because of Manson's accused actions. Nothing was heard. As we know tho, Tom is wise and I do not believe him to be psychotic. He also encourages us to suspend our beliefs for a short time to ponder a few big thoughts. In this case a big thought might be just to give the guys words a chance.

I find Manson's interview that is quoted as Nathan's quote, as a statement by a man who allows his mind the freedom to be beyond PMR. He is closed in by a tiny cell as our mind has at one time been closed in by this tiny world. It is through our ability to see past the cell bars that we can find NPMR. He also refers to seeing the trees grow and being in the desert which could either be an amazing out of body experience, or a made up fantasy by a madman. Either way tho, being completely shut out to the possibility of a a man like him being capable of such or having words of wisdom to offer us, is putting ourselves on a pedestal above him, declaring him unworthy of growth and truth. As I've found, ego never pays it always costs.

After reading Nathan's posts I did not find any reference at all that he has justifying Manson's actions. He did not speak of him being innocent of any crimes he was accused of either, he is just not held down by the belief trap that; because you dont like everything someone does, they have nothing worth listening to.

I believe referring to Nathan as a "simple society based morality" is actually the opposite of what he is. If he was "society based" he would not listen to Manson at all because that's what society tells us. "He's a monster so shut him up!" Plus I find it interesting that his moral was pointed out at all since not once did he mention Manson's actions' only his words.

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance. " -Albert Einstein

I believe that often times people forget that it is by obstacles and mistakes that we are able to grow, as well as gain wisdom to pass on to others. I do not know whether the events that Charles Manson was accused of happened that way or not. I do not believe it is my duty to condemn him whether guilty or not, but I do believe keeping an open mind and trying to gain wisdom (while remaining skeptical of course), is the path to ultimate growth.

Harmony


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:25 am 
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Harmony,

I suggest to you that you actually listen carefully to what Manson has to say as I did. You may have no experience of it and think he has something to say but clearly he is speaking from psychosis, not any great wisdom. As was pointed out in and demonstrated in that extract from the book which he helped write, he can be very seductive to those susceptible. Would you have joined his family? Would you have participated in his actions? You have not even really read and understood what I posted, by your comment. I in no way attributed a simple society based morality to Nathan. I advised that he should have consulted it however.

If you like quotations, try this one on. Ignorance brings its own rewards.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:49 am 
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Charles Manson feels no emotion (in his own words): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxSoUlEf ... re=related

I did pick up one wise thing he said (paraphrase): "you all play little games in your minds, I do what I have to to survive". We all play little games with ourselves in our minds, it is called ego. Manson apparently has less of that in a way but he is lacking something very important: real love and caring.

My impression is that Manson is neither fully psychotic or very wise. He is deranged but understandable, also with a mean, utterly psychotic side to him, that could come out at any time.

Just my two cents.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:28 am 
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So I watched that interview video also and see more evidence that Manson is psychotic. He is not unintelligent but he is psychotic. He has a talent for causing confusion and inducing others to see him in positive ways but that is only surface. One can learn the words, I am love, and still be psychotic. One can spout these words and still have no conception of their meaning if one is psychotic. He had a very sad life and by his accounts is refusing to learn anything positive from it. He has been on a negative track which has limited his perceptions to only the negative. I think that he is not a symbol of the prison system's failure as much as the limitations of society in that society has no way to deal properly with someone in his circumstances. If he could have been put with a truly loving and caring and understanding foster parent early on, he might have been able to do better with his circumstances but he remained on a downward spiral track and sadly can see nothing else at present. He will hopefully obtain some serious help in NPMR before his next PMR excursion or he will just do badly the next time as well.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:34 am 
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My original post was for anyone with an open enough mind to temporarily put aside what they think and assume they know about Manson, and listen to perhaps one of the four interviews I mentioned on youtube. Sounds simple enough.

Just because I am inspired by a couple interviews doesn't mean I celebrate murder.

I started to watch an interview with pad and pencil in hand to do what I said which was compare Charles quotes with Tom's. But then I second guessed it. I didn't want to sit there and analyze it. Those interviews are an experience! Just like reading MBT there is more there than just the words. You can't just use your intellect or it will never speak to your heart.

"When you divide and cut and analyze, life disappears; only dead parts are left. What I am intending to say to you is this: Existence is one. If you approach it through analysis, it appears material; dead. If you approach it through participation, it appears as life, as divine, as consciousness." - Osho

The question is, will you be open minded enough to draw your own conclusions, or will you listen to the tired, worn out, fear based society response to Manson, which is "Oh no! You will be brainwashed too!" ... I think we both know that your mind is not that fragile. :)

So the MBT science way of doing things would be to set aside all beliefs temporarily, remembering that beliefs pose as OBVIOUS KNOWLEDGE, and watch what I have suggested using open -minded skepticism. THEN, of course, by all means, draw your own conclusions from it. Call Charlie and me crazy like everyone else.

Thanks Advaita and Harmony for apparently watching at least some of an interview before judging.

I linked some part 1's of his interviews. If you watch those and feel the Spirit move like I did, you can always watch a part 2. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4Xw5Dc_ ... detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4Xw5Dc_ ... detailpage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4Xw5Dc_ ... detailpage

"The world is at once an ecstatic contemplation of God's navel and a grotesque experience of God's bowels."- unknown

"Great blessings come by way of madness, indeed madness that is heaven sent." - Socrates

If you don't know nothing
-that's everything
you can't start until you end
- ... Charles Manson


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:11 pm 
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Nathan,

Since you cannot apparently understand it without it being spelled out, I watched those videos and made my mind up based upon what I saw in them, not before hand or based upon what society has said about him. Charles Manson is psychotic. Irregardless of any ills of society, failures of his upbringing and faults of the judicial and prison systems, the bottom line is that Charles Manson is a psychotic, a paranoid schizophrenic. No matter how many of you are susceptible to his dubious charms, he remains a paranoid schizophrenic and a danger to society. If he were released back into society, there is a very high probability that given the opportunity, he would recreate his little 'coven' and they would kill again. As long as I see his irrational ravings, or however many of you are seduced by him into thinking that he is not, I will continue to so characterize him.

Ted


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:15 pm 
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In general, I think it a very good thing to hunt for ideas everywhere, mystics, religion, science, aboriginal tales, fiction, lunacy, fantasy, communists, anarchists, ... even republicans! ( .....errm... mum's the word on this last ... okay? I wouldn't want it widely known!)

One ought, in general, to take the same kinds of precautions as might have an explorer crossing the plains 150 years ago: There are dangers out there, some not obvious. Keep your wits about you.


In this particular case, I am just going to steer clear of Mansonist ideation. There might be stuff in it that I could use. I already have an idea of the general flavor of what is there from the remarks above. Mehn~ ... there are already a jillion other places to go treasure hunting that look far more promising. I certainly don't want to inadvertantly access weirdo psychotic-oid energies (there are a lot of other unpleasant psychic structures besides schizophrenia). It can be like shaking hands with a dirty fly-tape strip: Yuck city! ......and how do you get the GDS off your hand?


Montana


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Hi Harmony and welcome to Tom's MBT discussion forums. :)
Love to you and yours,
Bette

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Bette,

Thank you for the kind welcome, I'm happy to be part of the board.

Harmony


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:18 pm 
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I agree with Advaita's statement "My impression is that Manson is neither fully psychotic or very wise."

I do not believe either that he could even be concluded to be very wise or psychotic from this interview, or even many interviews alone because of the constant interruptions by the interviewers and he sometimes strays from the questions. Neither fully psychotic, because he does show ability to understand the situation and questions asked of him. This could be as Manson states in his Tom Snyder interview,

"You've got a stone wall there, why don't you take it down a little bit."

Referring to the interviewers, what appears to be, his determination to dislike anything he has to say before he even speaks. And as Nathan pointed out Manson does seem to be drugged in another. I also do not find through these interviews alone that the conclusion can become concrete that he is very wise either. I am not concluding his words to be almighty or all knowing nor do I think they should automatically be dismissed.

"Don't follow any advice, no matter how good, until you feel as deeply in your spirit as you think in your mind that the counsel is wise."
Joan Rivers

Harmony


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:36 pm 
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He, Manson, order 5 hamburgers no cheese no fries from a friend of mine whose Aunt owned the Trails Drive-In in Trona, CA.
Love
Bette

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Consciousness.


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