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 Post subject: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:23 am 
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This is my review on itunes of the book Free will by Sam Harris:

"Free will", authored by Sam Harris, is about persuading the reader, through factual analysis and reasoned argument, that free will doesn't exist. It is not even a coherent concept, Harris contends.

The significance of the concept of free will and its lack of existence, is enormous, the concept determines our collective view of morality, the nature of our justice system as well as our own sense of self-worth.

Free will is the belief that we are the conscious creators of our thoughts and that we can choose from a range of possible alternatives at every seeming time of decision.

Harris succeeds in putting these illusions to an end, in my mind. He also succeeds, in my opinion, in demonstrating that we don't need to believe in free will to lead a good life. It is not a necessary illusion.

Free will is well written. It is short and easily digestible.


Last edited by Advaita on Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:10 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:00 am 
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It is my opinion that we do possess free will, just as Tom Campbell describes and that its existence is fundamental to the development of Consciousness and the functioning of our reality as Consciousness Space and the various Virtual Realities. The basic reason that it is ambiguous to many and in some circumstances is that it exists at the level of our true selves as IUOCs as the digital minds which animate and make the decisions that control our PMR VR existences. Those decisions that constitute this free will are of necessity not all available to our consciousness as we exist and function as Free Will Awareness Units here in our PMR experience. This is basically the result of the technical details as they might be described of our functioning. The aspect of Tom Campbell's model that explains the vast difference in rate of functioning in terms of the speed of reality cell interaction basic to CS and ourselves as IUOCs and the much, much slower functioning in terms of delta t states of the PMR VR, although these are still extremely and undetectably fast compared to the best measurements of PMR science. I have explained this here on the board a number of times and it is included in the short statement of Tom's model on the Wiki. http://wiki.my-big-toe.com/index.php/Th ... _Link_Page

While a number of you have read this description, the number that have made it all the way through and make it clear that it is fully understood are a very small percentage. That is in part the difference between Tom's books of over 800 pages with all of their restatements and explanations which are still difficult for many to understand all of the concepts and roughly 20 pages on the Wiki. Partly the sheer difficulty and strangeness of the concepts which are essentially based in pure mathematics. Our PMR experience is provided by the digital data stream as produced by The Big Computer as Tom's metaphorical conceptualization of the origin of what produces our consciousness. By its nature as a digital data stream that 'flows' at a rate of change that is much past the capability of PMR science to detect, our true exercise of free will and our true and total 'stream of consciousness as digital data flow' is not accessible to us but instead, only a select and very limited conscious stream of thoughts.

I have stated to you that it is perfectly possible to function in this VR experience without even this limited stream of consciousness and there are at least two published records (Suzanne Segal, Bernadette Roberts) of those who have experienced the cessation of even this minimal stream of internal thoughts while maintaining a perfectly normal 'appearance' externally of functioning. I. E. you can find yourself saying things and doing things, in the sense of everything that you do or say, that you have no conscious knowledge of planning to say or do and in fact no clearly conscious thoughts at all. You just sit back and watch the show in effect with no sense of choice at all and there is very much the internal feeling of being a marionette with no free will at all. This led in one case to a state of existential terror and in another to religious mysticism and in my case to a great insight into the nature of our reality and of our selves within it and the ability to have or not have this internal dialogue at need and without any angst. This can be achieved by an act of will/Intent, in my experience, as described by Carlos Castaneda as stopping the internal dialogue.

It is not at all surprising that the concept of free will is so difficult for some to understand or accept and that its existence is denied by some.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:32 pm 
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I still have the internal dialogue going, though likely at a reduced roar but this ...
Ted wrote:I. E. you can find yourself saying things and doing things, in the sense of everything that you do or say, that you have no conscious knowledge of planning to say or do and in fact no clearly conscious thoughts at all.
... caught my attention.

I often now, hardly ever before, if ever before, find myself interacting with people in a way I'm not used to. My words of reply are chipper and friendly - for no reason at all. Even when I feel, internally, decidedly NOT chipper and friendly. As if it's someone else talking to that stranger.

It's an odd feeling to get feedback that's always pleasant as a result.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:17 pm 
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RBM wrote:I still have the internal dialogue going, though likely at a reduced roar but this ...
Ted wrote:I. E. you can find yourself saying things and doing things, in the sense of everything that you do or say, that you have no conscious knowledge of planning to say or do and in fact no clearly conscious thoughts at all.
... caught my attention.

I often now, hardly ever before, if ever before, find myself interacting with people in a way I'm not used to. My words of reply are chipper and friendly - for no reason at all. Even when I feel, internally, decidedly NOT chipper and friendly. As if it's someone else talking to that stranger.

It's an odd feeling to get feedback that's always pleasant as a result.
That happens to me too.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:20 am 
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Ted-

We may have free will at the level of our IUOCs for all I know, but we don't have it as limited FWAUs. Our stream of consciousness simply occurs to us beyond our control.

I don't know much about Suzanne Segal or Bernadette Roberts, except that I know of them vaguely. Their experience (and yours) sounds quite strange. Maybe you can describe that experience in more detail and explain what you think it means? Expanding on what you wrote above, I mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:09 am 
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The idea that we have free will at the level of IUOCs and must in order for consciousness to exist is that we thus have it as our selves as humans as our IUOC is our true self. This is not altered by having no direct control of what part of our total thoughts can be conscious to us. Our IUOC having the total stream of our thoughts is actually ourselves, no matter what limited subset we can be aware of here in our PMR experience.

Do a search for Suzanne Segal on the board and you can find past posts, rather than just repeat things said already. If this does not tell you what you wish to know, ask again. Both she and Bernadette Roberts are readily found on an Internet search for still further information.

Ted


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:04 am 
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Very interesting, Maybe people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and such really are on to big truth. (their truth), It could be they don't have any free will and only exist in probability as a computer simulation. Our dreams are full of characters which seem to be fill ins to give realism. Why not here. We who see bigger pictures of reality may be the arrogant ones, without knowing it (belief trap!), I put this possibility to people some times and they really don't like it. It makes them feel like they may be one, and when they die that is it. I then explain to them we would not be entertaining these ideas if we did not have free will. Fred searching for truth


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:24 am 
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fast wrote:Very interesting, Maybe people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and such really are on to big truth. (their truth), It could be they don't have any free will and only exist in probability as a computer simulation. Our dreams are full of characters which seem to be fill ins to give realism. Why not here. We who see bigger pictures of reality may be the arrogant ones, without knowing it (belief trap!), I put this possibility to people some times and they really don't like it. It makes them feel like they may be one, and when they die that is it. I then explain to them we would not be entertaining these ideas if we did not have free will. Fred searching for truth
I think that thinking, that some of the sentient entities here in this PMR are "really" just fill in characters can lead to dangerous psychosis and anti-rat behaviors.
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Bette

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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:07 pm 
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bette wrote:
fast wrote:Very interesting, Maybe people like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and such really are on to big truth. (their truth), It could be they don't have any free will and only exist in probability as a computer simulation. Our dreams are full of characters which seem to be fill ins to give realism. Why not here. We who see bigger pictures of reality may be the arrogant ones, without knowing it (belief trap!), I put this possibility to people some times and they really don't like it. It makes them feel like they may be one, and when they die that is it. I then explain to them we would not be entertaining these ideas if we did not have free will. Fred searching for truth
I think that thinking, that some of the sentient entities here in this PMR are "really" just fill in characters can lead to dangerous psychosis and anti-rat behaviors.
Love
Bette
I really don't know what to think, I don't even know where all the (data) thoughts are coming from, I just try to explore all possibilities and the probability's of them being true, and keep FEAR out of the picture as much as possible.(Big truth is just that), being open to finding it, is what I am all about. And dangerous is all about FEAR. I know most people are not open to these type of possibilities, But whats any more far out! than us having this communication on a speck of dust in the middle of no where?
Bette, Most people would think, people like me and you are flat out crazy and full of it. To me the only real danger is FEAR! Fred searching for truth


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:58 am 
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fast-

Common sense dictates that we have good reasons for holding the beliefs that we hold. Baseless speculation serves no purpose.

Your proof of free will makes zero sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:22 am 
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As an addendum to what I wrote above, I need to point out that determinism does not equal fatalism. An important point Harris made in his book.

Fatalism is the idea that we can just surrender our destiny and no learning or growth is really possible. Determinism is the notion that everything we do is ultimately determined by fixed causal forces outside our conscious experience.

We do not have freedom here in PMR. That is certain. Our stream of consciousness, which includes our inclinations, and therefore the choices we make, emerges spontaneously to us from the unconscious. We can still grow by experience, however, and by having our pot stirred by new experiences, we change. We cannot relinquish control over our experience because we never had any control to begin with. Both the concept free will and the concept of its absence are meaningless here in PMR for that reason. You still have to struggle through life and live with uncertainty.


Last edited by Advaita on Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:04 am 
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Advaita wrote:fast-

Common sense dictates that we have good reasons for holding the beliefs that we hold. Baseless speculation serves no purpose.

Your proof of free will makes zero sense to me.
I am saying maybe you and others don't have free will, only you can make that determination! I Admit I don't know whats going on in somebody's experience, I speculate from common since they could be right! especially for them. And belief seems like a cover up for doubts. I prefer to interpret my truths from my personal experiences. Fred searching for truth


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:43 am 
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Advaita, you will find that the concept of free will is completely viable when you also consider the concept of decision space.

Besides, Sam Harris arguments fails when universal causality is false; the belief that causality in PMR is universal and not local. There is no problem with free will when PMR is a subset of NPMR, part of a hierarchy of causality. The cause of free will is non-physical, because it is function of consciousness, it is not a function of the brain or PMR.


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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:17 am 
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Advaita wrote:As an addendum to what I wrote above, I need to point out that determinism does not equal fatalism. An important point Harris make in his book.

Fatalism is the idea that we can just surrender our destiny and no learning or growth is really possible. Determinism is the notion that everything we do is ultimately determined by fixed causal forces outside our conscious experience.

We do not have freedom here in PMR. That is certain. Our stream of consciousness, which includes our inclinations, and therefore the choices we make, emerges spontaneously to us from the unconscious. We can still grow by experience, however, and by having our pot stirred by new experiences, we change. We cannot relinquish control over our experience because we never had any control to begin with. Both the concept free will and the concept of its absence are meaningless here in PMR for that reason. You still have to struggle through life and live with uncertainty.
Advaita I think of it more as things are caused but not determined with the causes the results of all the free will choices made by all the FWAUs involved in the probable event. We have as much freedom in PMR as the rule-set allows and then beyond that as much as the Belief Systems we hold disallow or limit. Our inclinations as far as what stuff means to us per our unique experiences with the stuff in all the contextual experiences we have with the stuff. An inclination is included in the stream of Consciousness because it is part of the data we have been generating during the life experience packet about what stuff means to us personally. We have choice in how we continue to interpret the stuff we have experience with that has helped shape our inclination in this character too which is free will based. We have free will to have nothing about an experience other than how we view it change its meaning that can help one create a much larger Reality with more ability to be comfortable with uncertainty while at the same time knowing every free will choice made causes some probable event to either raise or lower in probability AND all the other FWAUs involved with a probable event's eventual actualization or not is involved which is where a lot of uncertainty comes from; except people are pretty predictable. Free will is certain. ;)
Love
Bette

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Last edited by bette on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Free will (a review)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:17 am 
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specialis_sapientia wrote:Advaita, you will find that the concept of free will is completely viable when you also consider the concept of decision space.

Besides, Sam Harris arguments fails when universal causality is false; the belief that causality in PMR is universal and not local. There is no problem with free will when PMR is a subset of NPMR, part of a hierarchy of causality. The cause of free will is non-physical, because it is function of consciousness, it is not a function of the brain or PMR.
I accept I have free will, You too I assume. Sam Harris may accept his concept just like we do just with a different point of view, His awareness could be different. Who knows he may be right, At least for him, That may be the only way he can make since of his experiences. I know you don't like the idea that he could be different from us, His free will may exist only in probability with TBC choosing. He may be aware of that, I don't really think so, I just try and stay open to all possibilities. Fred searching for truth


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