My problem with ego

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Rosie M
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My problem with ego

Post by Rosie M »

I have a little "knowledge" over years of reading (not least MBT) cogitating, absorbing, making connections, yet am only too aware of my propensity to be bumptious and so almost never articulate any of it.
The few occasions in the past when I tried to communicate back-fired ; I felt, rightly or wrongly that I was misunderstood - and then mis-represented - so I withdrew from trying to "teach"

A new opportunity now seems to be opening up.

Question: How to balance the urge to pass on this wonderful message without feeling self- important? ( I feel like a bloody onion - loads of layers of self deception)

On a lighter note - Billy Eckstein "My Foolish Heart" ticks all my boxes. Lovely stuff.

R.
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by Ted Vollers »

Rosie,

All you have to do is keep on the basis of 'look what I found'. After all, you didn't write it. Tom did. Sharing the information is after all what you are doing. You probably are not in a position to 'teach' anyway. Just keep steering by 'sharing what I found' and you should do fine.

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Rosie M
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by Rosie M »

Thanks Ted - good sound sense. In fact there's been a result this evening: our daughter, not the original recipient, was copied into the message and link that I sent to our son; she opened it at work and casually passed it on to a colleague who grabbed it with both hands. Can that be chalked up as evidence of something do you think? I feel quietly happy.
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by MicroGuy »

For the most part, I've found, that people don't want to be told that their way of doings things is wrong.

Often times, we think since we have discovered something that works best for us, that we now know what will work best of others. In fact, everyone is on a different path and in order for evolution of source consciousness to work, these other people must make their own mistakes and find their own direction. This is by design. And since some have been here many lifetimes and others not as many, perhaps the vibrational resonance between us can often times be out of alignment. Therefore communicating with these beings such matters as highly evolved ideologies or alternative (and scientific) explanations of reality can become difficult, if not impossible. If the human mind is closed, it tends to remain closed. To these individuals, if it's (information) not on TV, it's not real. And of course GMO's, vaccines, fluoride in tap water, psychotropic medications for children, aspartame, and flu shots are all completely normal and part of a healthy lifestyle.

You could use a sort of test to decide which people to approach with your teaching. If they think mainstream media is anything other than a propaganda arm of the industrial military complex, don't even waste your time. I recently revisited Plato's Allegory of the Cave and it has helped me immensely in dealing with people that have decided to keep their minds closed and to accept the spoon feeding they receive from TV and the majority at large. In these cases, I just love and appreciate them for who they are, and accept them the way they are. This seems to work best for me.

Good luck with your life journey and much much love to you!
Last edited by MicroGuy on Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by bette »

Well you cannot know if you don't know so it is a disservice to not put out what you know so perhaps someone can get something out of it to try on and maybe to be able to know themselves. You can't know what you don't know. Tom said something like that.

There is a social norm against knowing one needs to get past too.
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Rosie M
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by Rosie M »

MG and Bette - Thanks so much for your observations.
After years of going round and round this stuff, it now seems that a path is opening through the dense undergrowth.
This Forum is so rich - "the isle is full of noises".
R.
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by bette »

You are most welcome Rosie. I've not said welcome to you so now is the chance, welcome to Tom's MBT discussion forums. I usually say welcome if I see only 1 post by a name, but missed that chance and can remember that for some reason.

Love to you and yours,
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by kroeran »

Rosie M wrote:MG and Bette - Thanks so much for your observations.
After years of going round and round this stuff, it now seems that a path is opening through the dense undergrowth.
This Forum is so rich - "the isle is full of noises".
R.
I think the main path with those you interact with regularly is for them to notice a distinct shift in the path of your self improvement

- you start to spend more time listening to others rather than talking at them about what's on your mind

- you become the person in the room who is forming intent->decisions->actions->results that are community based rather than centered on your particular primal or ego needs in the moment

- you increasingly are able to adopt the perspective of how others perceive you in interaction and you start to entrain to the feedback of how others actually experience you, rather than autonomically emitting emotion and behavior, shooting from the brain rather than shooting from the hip, as well as shooting from the (other-centred) heart

- you become increasingly able to be non-responsive to direct insults and attacks, and beyond this, develop the capacity for forgiveness in real time, countering neurosis and harm with personal control and empathy

- you become skilled at the art of putting little subtle culturally appropriate "hooks" in the water to see if the fish jump on the bait, and you sensitize your listening radar for verbal signs that the person is in a state of openness and seeking, at the mental level

- you are increasingly what you are with people and less so your impressive ego projection, the true person behind the curtain, and not a pretender of spiritual superiority, which means you can be unhappy, depressed, lonely...and this honesty opens up authentic connection with people, making you and them less unhappy, depressed, lonely

one of the principle things I got out of Tom's stuff was the freedom to form the best intent I could muster, and not over-worry about my effectiveness so much, so, be mindful that we are in an intent/feedback simulator...the actual results to your actions are secondary.

- I think there is significant positive feedback allocated in the system for those that invest in overt socially appropriate dissemination of the MBTOE model, according to their situartion and skills.

One line I used profitably last week...there was a fellow who made a reference to being spiritual, not religious, so I said to him..."Do you know what comes after Spirituality", and he said, "no, what?"

so I said

"Quantum Physics"..which led to a profitable conversation about entangled pairs and the quantum eraser, which excited him...which was notable as he was one of the secular priesthood on the arty side of things and opinion leaders Tom is targeting. One can go quite far down that road without getting into Tom's spooky stuff, as even the virtual video game model of reality is "established fringe science" and not part of Tom's unique value added (new "art").

The more you can keep the conversation within the bounds of stuff that can be looked up on wikipedia, the more powerful the case. I think the key to MBTOE is

1) how it pulls together various disparate pieces of the puzzle already being modelled, which strengthens its credibility - this is not a stand alone belief system
2) Tom's unique value added related to actually being able to step into the broader reality and at the same time explain PSI such as remote viewing, past lives and NDEs.

At this same event I had an opportunity to interact with a University prof of physics, and I was reassured that a great deal of what Tom discusses is mainstream albeit spooky - indeed the prof confirmed physicists have absolutely no idea how to explain the contradictory measurements of reality

I mentioned Tom's book to him and he retaliated with this recommendation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Short_Hi ... Everything
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Rosie M
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by Rosie M »

Hello K- I appreciate your considered response. Thank you.

The check list of behaviours was a useful reminder.

I have always tried to be an "ear" but am conscious that I can rarely offer an answer to a specific problem.

Loved your "quantum physics" answer to the what comes next question - though it's not one I am likely to use in any debate - coming as I do from the arty-farty persuasion! I am in the process of re-reading MBT and guess that bit was what I skipped first time round.

I am just glad that some hard science types are now apparently holding their hands up.

Thanks for the Bill Bryson link; I enjoyed a number of his travel books and was aware of this one though I have never read it.

R.
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by kroeran »

Rosie M wrote: Loved your "quantum physics" answer to the what comes next question - though it's not one I am likely to use in any debate - coming as I do from the arty-farty persuasion! I am in the process of re-reading MBT and guess that bit was what I skipped first time round.

R.
I see religion as something culturally centered on the brain's primitive R-complex, spirituality as centered on the brain's right hemisphere, and TOEism is centered on the left hemisphere.

Or, TOEism (the philosophical school described or implicated by Tom's model) is more wholeistic, integrating the R-complex, left and right hemispheres, the right hemisphere being the gateway to the NPMR datastream.

I am not sure if Tom has specifically written or said that Quantum Physics comes after spirituality, or if this is one of my pathetic attempts to push the envelope and create "new art" - its more of an observation of what Tom is doing, rather than a repetition of established TOEian principles.

The Theory is of course by design unfriendly to artsy-fartsy-land as well as religion-land, being "spirituality for the rest of us", and Tom has said he is surprised that non-quantitative types, especially Church going people, are so interested in the model...this was not the target audience.

My experience was that the first read through is more related to being able to say one got through it, and that the second read through is more about actually absorbing it. A good practise would be to randomly scan a couple of pages a day, or take it to the can, as a life long "best practise". I also use a pen to underline key points, and I dog-ear key pages. It is also useful to play Tom's youtube videos when doing manual tasks.

As authentic arty types (art doers as opposed to art culture "hangers on") already over-invest in stimulating the right hemishere, and as iconoclacism is normally a fellow travellor permitting unconstrained expression of primal impulses (the opposite is suppression and neurosis), the wholeiscism of TOEism points by implication to increased investment in the left hemisphere "arts" and a rebalancing...getting in touch with your "inner accountant" and discipline

...paying down the credit cards, investing in credentials, showing up to work early and leaving late, doing more tasks around the home....so that the arty FWAU first becomes less of a practical burden to others, and then pushes through to build PMR effectiveness on top of the foundation of the love instinct of low entropy...initially beginning to impact the direct social environment in constructive ways, and at the outer tail of effectiveness, interacting with history in a constructive way.
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by Rosie M »

Thank you Koeran - such a lot to digest in that.

Forgive me if I don't address each point you make specifically. but have a look at this which is my "take" thus far on MBT, and let me know what you think:

MBT (Love) :

Encourages exploration of a wider reality – a Bigger Picture.
Is scientific and not bound by our apparent reality.
Does not contain the word “belief” in its propositions
Expects adherents to look for evidence of its truth both from inside themselves and out.
Maintains that what we experience through our 5 senses is a virtual reality
And that our physical reality is a sub-set of a larger non-physical reality.
Urges open-mindedness and scepticism in equal measure.
Is not founded in the arrogant belief that human beings are the pinnacle of all creation.
Points to all areas of scientific discovery, philosophy, artistic and creative insights from ancient times till now as evidence of its theory.
Is not “cribbed, cabined and confined” by a belief set.
Emphasises the need for individuals to work on themselves, to search and explore with courage and honesty; to seek and record evidence
Encourages seekers to deal with the twin stumbling blocks to growth of Ego and Fear.
Argues that by reducing ego and confronting fears at the personal level (entropy reduction) is to benefit the Whole.
Does not seek to manipulate and control; does not proselytise.
Its expositions are presented as tools to greater understanding – not as sacred texts – and like all tools, free to be discarded if they are not helpful.
Its metaphors are acknowledged simply as metaphors, its symbols as symbols; they are be presented as Truth itself.
Wars will not be fought defending it ; people will not die in its cause.
Evidence of its truth is to be found in the attitudes of those who live by it.
Its exponents are sign posts pointing away from themselves.

R.
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by kroeran »

very impressive summary! what follows is my input based on my perhaps limited understanding of the Theory

Encourages exploration of a wider reality – a Bigger Picture.
-ok
Is scientific and not bound by our apparent reality.
-ok
Does not contain the word “belief” in its propositions
-ok
Expects adherents to look for evidence of its truth both from inside themselves and out.
-ok
Maintains that what we experience through our 5 senses is a virtual reality
-NPMR is virtual as well i.e. the NDE or OBE environment is a virtual datastream...the non-virtual fundamental manifold being unsensible on any level.
And that our physical reality is a sub-set of a larger non-physical reality.
-ok
Urges open-mindedness and scepticism in equal measure.
-ok
Is not founded in the arrogant belief that human beings are the pinnacle of all creation.
-ok
Points to all areas of scientific discovery, philosophy, artistic and creative insights from ancient times till now as evidence of its theory.
-ok
Is not “cribbed, cabined and confined” by a belief set.
-ok
Emphasises the need for individuals to work on themselves, to search and explore with courage and honesty; to seek and record evidence
-ok
Encourages seekers to deal with the twin stumbling blocks to growth of Ego and Fear.
-ok
Argues that by reducing ego and confronting fears at the personal level (entropy reduction) is to benefit the Whole.
-ok
Does not seek to manipulate and control; does not proselytise.
-although I get what you are saying...at some level of onion peeling, manipulation, control and proselytisation, are tools or activities subject to the quality of intent. Like weapons, they may be used profitably, or not. That being said, these words are generally associated with negative intent.
Its expositions are presented as tools to greater understanding – not as sacred texts – and like all tools, free to be discarded if they are not helpful.
-ok
Its metaphors are acknowledged simply as metaphors, its symbols as symbols; they are be presented as Truth itself.
-ok
Wars will not be fought defending it ; people will not die in its cause.
-where there is ego and fear, there will be fighting, killing and dieing. At some point a muslim person will convert to the model openly, in a place where this is dangerous to do so, and be stoned. Most of TOEism would be illegal to speak of, in certain countries. Crazy people will attach themselves to the model and kill in Tom's name...cost of doing business.
Evidence of its truth is to be found in the attitudes of those who live by it.
-I would clarify perhaps, ...Evidence of its truth is to be found in the intent of each person who lives by it? to be clear that we find our own proof through direct experience, and that we are in an intent simulator, not an attitude simulator, which may be accurate, but attitude leaves a little too much weasel room for having lofty ideas but with lousy intent->decisions->actions->results->feedback performance
Its exponents are sign posts pointing away from themselves.
-nice, that would make an interesting image!

largely, I could not find fault with your list, which probably could have been written by any old timer or Tom himself...I just could not resist the urge to provide some feedback for a possible discussion
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Rosie M
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by Rosie M »

Kroeran - thanks for the feedback.
Yes - I take your point about passing on the message - it's all about intent isn't it - and there's the nub. What is A N Other's intent? - and more to the point what is my own when feeling the urge to shout from the roof tops!

As I've said before, I've been years cogitating all this, but only from perspectives such as literature, particularly poetry, and the bible, and only since April from MBT, - so rather one-sided; that is why it has gripped me.

But to go back to the attempt at a summary: isn't that just the raw message of the Nazarene? Christianity stripped bare of fighting, fund-raising, fundamentalism, blokes in frocks and all the other rubbish that has accrued down the centuries?

What I find exciting about Tom's work is the extra dimension of science of which I know little - a poor attempt at O level Physics 50 years ago. The concepts and language of MBT are challenging (I had an fascinating time looking at the qualitative v quantitative debate as a result of one of your earlier observations which I didn't quite understand, and am not sure I do even now!) It will be an interesting winter.

Thanks again for your input.

R.
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by kroeran »

Rosie M wrote: isn't that just the raw message of the Nazarene? Christianity stripped bare of fighting, fund-raising, fundamentalism, blokes in frocks and all the other rubbish that has accrued down the centuries?

R.
Christianity is an area that I have invested a lot of time on. As yourself, open scepticism leads to grounding yourself on the bedrock of the gospel record and the personality and world view of the Nazarene.

When I first came upon Tom, one thought was here was a science guy who has cleverly taken the gospel para-world view and translated it into modern language. Very clever.

Then as I started digging into this, it became clear that Tom has virtually no apparent direct PMR religious experience, background or curiosity, other than his experience with TM and his reading of eastern philosophers...so this starts to become a real damn interesting datapoint.

How would you explain someone who sounds like the Nazarene but who has no apparent PMR connection to that philosophy and tradition?

Because of the layers of belief associated with the dominant religion of the west, a direct data based assessment of anything Christian is not possible in this environment, which is why Tom is a Jesus-free zone. If you try to have a discussion that involves these words, people's heads explode and you attract an emotional tirade. It is what it is. One would likely find the same thing in a traditionally Buddhist country...too layered with belief.

So, we do not talk about Christianity here, at least not yet. The beauty of Judaism is mired in politics and ethnic nervousness. Islam almost never comes up. Tom and Ted are particularly keen on Buddhism and the east.

My advice is to set religion aside and invest in the new language, and take care to not import belief into TOEism, ground yourself in Quantum Physics, which is satisfying weird, but as well, measurable and they teach it in the Universities. We no longer need to leave our brain at the door when exploring the meaning of life and beyond life.
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Rosie M
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Re: My problem with ego

Post by Rosie M »

Hi K - thanks for the advice.

Gosh no - I wouldn't want to make people's heads explode or attract emotional tirades. Dog forbid!

I shall plug away at the second reading - I was charmed by your suggestion to take it to the lavatory by the way, not as a cure for constipation surely! - and this time will take it more slowly, struggle with the hard stuff and explore unfamiliar concepts as they crop up.

It would be lovely to do an Open University course in Physics, but the cost of that has become prohibitive, so it will be t'internet for me.

Thanks again and very best wishes,

R.
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