Control Vs. Being

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The best way to deal with fear-based emotions/grow up positively:

Actively use intent to stop fearful emotions/responses.
0
No votes
Feel the fear-based emotions; just make your choices independently, regardless of emotional state.
1
11%
Both of the above methods work (and are equally efficient).
5
56%
The first is generally more effective than the second.
1
11%
The second is generally more effective than the first.
1
11%
Neither, another method (not shown here) is best.
1
11%
 
Total votes: 9

Wanderer
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Control Vs. Being

Post by Wanderer »

Hello everyone!

Today I wanted to throw a question out there for your consideration and discussion:

What is the difference between growth at the being level (positive, long-term sustainable evolution) and growth through control (negative growth, non-sustainable evolution)? My reason for asking this is because after watching this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ora5yX6Z ... t=1h28m11s) and hearing Tom describe how when an individual feels an emotion that is anything but joy, (happiness, compassion, etc.) then it is almost always a manifestation of his/her fear(s), so to speak.

He then described that the best way to grow out of these fears is to just not let the fears drive you.
My question is, is it possible to get into a habit of operating out of fear and ego when trying to beat the fear response? Is the best way to beat these fears by feeling the emotion and not be driven by it? Or is it also okay to "manually" (with intent, I suppose) stop the fear response the instant it is felt?

The reason why I even ask about the second is due to my western cultural belief system that includes the philosophy (as Tom points out in Awakening) of only being able to accomplish things by "doing".

I have wondered if the approach of still feeling the fear based emotion and not being driven by it was an OK practice, but I have also heard that trying to not feel (stop) the emotion in any way may have a tendency to be an ego-based approach (because it could lead to the ego motivation of things needing to be a certain way, mentioned here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ora5yX6Z ... t=1h32m30s in the video).

Then again, the practice of stopping an emotional reaction as soon as you feel/notice it should work too, because if you are not operating from fear, then you should be able to stop the emotions that are fear based without an ego-based motivation (because if the ego motivation is not there, then stopping such emotions would only be a matter of stopping certain bodily processes).

So, is there a best way to react to emotions? Should we just let them be? Should we stop them? Is one method less ego-based than the other? What are some methods that you all might have devised to deal with fearful emotions?


Edit:
I think I'll repeat/simplify my question since I might not be expressing myself clearly in the rest of the post:

Is controlling your emotions (when you notice a fear response, or any emotion in general, and deciding to force the reaction to stop via your intent) a fearful way to try to grow up?

In other words, is this method of trying to grow up a way to negatively decrease your entropy?

I can force any emotional reaction to stop via intent, and am not sure if this would be a love-based way to grow up (positive growth). To be as clear as I can be, when I say stop a fearful reaction via intent, I do not mean getting upset when I notice a fear response. I mean simply "shutting it off" so to speak.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is using your intent to stop fear-based reactions a fear-based way to grow up (negative lowering of entropy)?


-Thanks in advance for your time.
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Re: Control Vs. Being

Post by Thomas »

Hi mate,
I very much like your post as these thoughts crossed my mind some time ago. I give you my 2-cents worth and off course it is subjective so take it or leave it as much as you like.

I think that the problem is only a problem for the dualistic mind asking...is it this OR that. The right answer would be, yes!
The mind will then ask which one? Right?
I would not suppress anything. So, if there is fear or anykind of emotion....watch them and know that you are not it.
Its like being in the zoo watching the animals. Then its up to you and your freedom of choice what to do now. Do you want to believe that the lion watching you will eat you up. Well, then you might even experience fear.

Movies and Computergames are able to produce fear in the gamer or movie watcher. This is based on the ability of your mind to suspend disbelief and choose instead to believe the movie for some hours. You experience fear, happyness, sadness whatever. And you like it. If you would not, you would not see the movie. A movie would not be fun either if someone would come up every 15 minutes saying. Dont suffer your emotions! This movie is not real!

Would that not kill the fun?

Now, shall you kill you emotion? Its up to you. Do you want them or not? Telling yourself that you should do this or that or should not or should do something that is not helpfull. It might even do you harm.

My suggestion is. Watch what is going on. Settle in your being. See what grows furth with a wanting and do what you want. Reacting ouf of fear as much a reaction as a automaton as reacting out of a concepts like: If there is fear I should do the oposite.
In the first case you react to the pressure of fear. In the other case you react to a concept. Be yourself, life in the now and do what comes out of that. Be it intent or be it a flow coming out of being.

cheers
Thomas
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Re: Control Vs. Being

Post by Ted Vollers »

I was waiting for this thread to develop before putting in my oar, but since it seems to not be developing very fast, I will comment.

As I remember my relatively early childhood, I remember a somewhat OCD like tendency to think over events of the day in terms of 'if only I had said this instead of that, then this might have happened instead'. This would keep me awake for some time. I chose to stop it and by repeatedly doing so with many failures and restarts of my intent to stop, eventually did stop it as a behavior. Much later in my life, I stopped my internal dialog, as per Castaneda, by Intending that it be so and basically having the system create that change so that internal thoughts are much more an option to me now. I have described this before on the board.

It is my belief that one can intend to alter ones behavior and if Intent is engaged, success can be achieved. This would apply to fear reactions or any other such behavior or emotion. To the extent that the system is involved in that your mental data stream of thoughts must come from TBC as part of your PMR experience, your IUOC functioning so fast in its 'thought' processes as to be beyond our comprehension here, as I have described before, you must repeat your Intent to change behaviors sufficiently to convince guidance and the system to make that change in your data stream.

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Re: Control Vs. Being

Post by Wanderer »

Ted Vollers wrote:I was waiting for this thread to develop before putting in my oar, but since it seems to not be developing very fast, I will comment.

As I remember my relatively early childhood, I remember a somewhat OCD like tendency to think over events of the day in terms of 'if only I had said this instead of that, then this might have happened instead'. This would keep me awake for some time. I chose to stop it and by repeatedly doing so with many failures and restarts of my intent to stop, eventually did stop it as a behavior. Much later in my life, I stopped my internal dialog, as per Castaneda, by Intending that it be so and basically having the system create that change so that internal thoughts are much more an option to me now. I have described this before on the board.

It is my belief that one can intend to alter ones behavior and if Intent is engaged, success can be achieved. This would apply to fear reactions or any other such behavior or emotion. To the extent that the system is involved in that your mental data stream of thoughts must come from TBC as part of your PMR experience, your IUOC functioning so fast in its 'thought' processes as to be beyond our comprehension here, as I have described before, you must repeat your Intent to change behaviors sufficiently to convince guidance and the system to make that change in your data stream.

Ted
You know Ted...you remind me of myself. In a lot of ways. I used to have the same behavior*. And I even had the same fear of dogs/wolves as you mentioned in another thread (I will post a link to the proper thread here tomorrow morning, as it is late where I live and I do need my sleep). In fact, this subject reminds me of what Tom (C.) has said about one of the functions of sleep being a way to reboot your system in case you keep on returning an error message or going into an endless loop.

I would like to say thanks to both to Ted, and Thomas (on this thread, not to discount Tom. C, I owe him thanks as well). What you have said has greatly helped me in my meditation. I have been struggling with my beliefs, fears, and ego for, well...all of my life really :), but only consciously at an intellectual level in an effective way for the past year or so (thanks to MBT). MBT has taught me a lot about how to better understand my fears, and pretty much everything that I have encountered in life so far. In fact, in the past few days, my proficiency to meditate has probably doubled, thanks to what you both have said. I've struggled with interpretations of various feelings of tension that I sometimes get in response to certain fears, which had caused me an immense amount of distraction when trying to meditate in the past, but I feel like both of your posts really helped me understand that I just need to really jump into the practice and just meditate, and stop analyzing my experience.

And really, I can identify with what you said about having "many failures and restarts of my intent to stop". That's mainly the struggle I have been having for...probably a year now, I do not know exactly when I began to try to modify my intent. In fact, this is largely the biggest block I have had with meditation. I had practiced until I was able to quiet my mind of any thought or emotion by detaching myself from it, but I always have found it nigh impossible to quiet my mind when I would happen to think of a song. I think this was because when I would think of a song - songs are like long data packages of sound and words (or at least, that's how I feel) - then it became difficult to detach from a song when trying to meditate. I have always been a very musical person and have always loved music, so for some reason, songs became a difficult thing to deal with when trying to clear my mind. Hence, I also have had "many failures and restarts of my intent to stop" just as you said you did with your behavior. It really feels to me like some of the things we enjoy the most or rather, can become the most attached to can become significant roadblocks, or teachers, in the process of learning how to meditate. That is simply my way of looking at it, after a year or so of MBT. Hopefully I can learn even more this year also.

PS:
There is one more thing that you both have helped me realize. This may be common knowledge to you too, but right after I wrote this post, and hearing Ted talk about some of the challenges he had to face, and thinking about those that I have had to face, I thought that maybe some people who incarnate on Earth have what I have heard being called a "core issue" (maybe via MBT or TMI or something else), or a main problem that they have chosen to solve in a said lifetime, so to speak. Probably not the reason for all of those who chose to incarnate on earth to incarnate here, but maybe this could be a general trend for some of those who have learned a good amount on earth but still have some problems to tackle that they haven't yet? I do not know if Tom talks about this in any of the books or video lectures, but I was wondering if a situation where an individual could get stuck on certain problems and have difficulty with outgrowing certain fears is common (or even remotely likely), and I'm just pretty curious about why a situation like this would happen (given that LCS is like a super computer with seeming infinite processing power and can pretty much guide and optimize your growth experiences because of all the information it has at its disposal -if needed-), or what the general reasoning that could explain why this could happen (assuming it could happen).
Last edited by Wanderer on Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Control Vs. Being

Post by Jeff Green »

Last night i picked up the book Seth: The Nature of Personal Reality and randomly flipped to page 282 and the first thing i read went like this...

"In daily practical experience, try to concentrate for a while upon seemingly subordinate abilities, ones that you think of as latent. If you do so consistently, using your imagination and will, then those abilities will become prominent in your present. The current beliefs will reprogram and alter past experience. It is not simply that past, forgotten, unconsciously perceived events will be put together in a new way and organized under a new heading, but that in that past (now not perceivable), the entire bodily response to seemingly past events will change. Your desire or belief will literally be reaching back into time, teaching the nerves new tricks. Definite reorganization in that past will occur in your present, allowing you to behave in entirely new fashions. Learned behavior therefore alters not only the present and the future but also past conduct. Your power as a rational consciousness focused in the present provides you with opportunities for creativity that you are but vaguely learning to understand. As you do learn, you will automatically begin to appreciate the multidimensional nature of not only your species but of others as well. The moment as you think of it, then, is the creative framework through which you, the nonphysical self, constantly form corporeal reality; and through that window into earthly existence you formm both its future and its past. You may take a break."

I figured i would share this data.

Goodnight everyone ;)
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Re: Control Vs. Being

Post by Delak »

na
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Re: Control Vs. Being

Post by Wanderer »

Delak wrote:I think when emotions hit, the only thing to to is to figure out how to mitigate the current situation.

An Example: If all of a sudden a shy person was called upon to give a speech and tremendous anxiety hits: trying to stop the emotion or just deciding to not be nervous, will not be effective. The damage was done through the millions of little choices of how the shy person lives his life. (This is comeing from the shyiest person I ever met- me) The battle is not so much then at that moment. But its in making those million tiny changes through out life to lessen shy effects over time.

If you start to feel yourself get irritated. A sudden change in activity is probably the most effective, rather than fighting it. Ultimately putting it aside or trying to rise above it is good thing to do but realistically being clever is best method of doing that...

If the ego gets caught up in an argument with a person, trick the ego into getting caught up in a video game, or go play competitive basketball might be less damaging, then keep shiting the ego's focus on less and less impactfull things.

BUT I will add this: the worst thing EVER I have found, is to feel hurt feelings or what ever and suppress it (this on surface seems like you are putting it aside and dismissing them, but really it creating a Bomb) by suppressing it and not speak up.

Speaking up, is really important. If somebody is being coey and slighting you. ACTING like it didn't bother you when it DID is the worst. I have better learned to get real basic and say what you feel imediately back...Such as "Those were very strange comments you just brought up, and they made it very unpleasant for me to be around you".

Also, it might be more effective if your say feel madness coming on. Just to actually get as mad as you feel, and get it out of the system.

Fears are values on physical quantities where there is risk. Changing the values is the best method. Where as not changing the values but Fighting thier side effects is hopless. Although suppressing urges might make it easier to change the values.
Well, I would agree about not suppressing them.

Personally, I can just stop feeling any feeling of my choice. Ex: I can go from sheer terror to being pretty much indifferent/emotionless about whatever fearful situation I happen/ed to be in. But, I usually feel tension in my neck if I do this, so for a while I have wondered if this tension was some kind of pmr feedback telling me to stop basically dismissing emotions.

But, at this point, I think I just need to work on my meditation and do my own investigation to evaluate my behaviors. Until then, I don't think I will constantly second-guess (prematurely evaluate) my actions, and I won't try to turn away from or stop any emotion, no matter how fearful or painful it is/they are.

Anyways, I don't think you have to change the activity to accept a fear -from my experience- (even though that may be an effective way to work up to acceptance of a fear). You can just accept it. I had difficulty with this at first due to my intellect thinking up a storm of thousands "what ifs". But, at a certain point, I realized that this behavior was illogical and only hindered my ability to deal with the "fearful" situation. So I just kept on working at it and (eventually) accepted the fear.

Personally, my main fear had been that a powerful negative entity would scare me silly (in retrospect, I did not really fear the attack itself, but the fear resulting and potential implications), which makes me reconsider the truth behind the phrase "nothing to fear but fear itself".

So in my case, it was pretty terrifying standing up to my fear, and yes, I pretty much would've preferred any other kind of physical or emotional pain other than the terror experienced when facing my fear, but I did it. Mainly due to introspection about how I could either run from the fear (really would only lead to living in fear for the rest of my life) or facing it, and perhaps be "destroyed" in some way (as was my fear). So, basically the way MBT helped me overcome this phobia was the logical derivation of how fear limits you in so many ways, how it is a problem that many have to solve in our lives, and allowed me to evaluate some of my past experiences and put them into a logical framework that made sense, and really supported the idea that fear can be outgrown and such a process is beneficial to our well-being (in terms of our happiness and our decision-space).

So, after realizing that my fear was something that could be dealt with, what worked for me was to trick myself (my intellect): I thought "well, if the point of life is to outgrow fear and become love, and one way I could do that is to accept this fear, then it's better that I face the fear and have to face the chance of personal obliteration and enjoy the rest of my life or live in fear for the rest of it like Gollum (from the Hobbit)".

So, I chose to accept the fear. Mainly because I didn't fancy the idea of living like Gollum. He may be hilarious, and a good riddler, but I'd pick Bilbo B. over Gollum any day.

Well, it's not like I have really mastered this practice so far since I do feel fearful emotions sometimes, but I just make it my goal to not operate on them. I am at the tentative hypothesis that you don't have to speak up to deal with anger, or upset, although this can be a good way to deal with those feelings, in certain situations (and sometimes, can be beneficial to others who hear you express your feelings with courage and confidence as well). You can feel the emotion but not act on it. Just because you feel mad does not mean you need to go around punching people in the face. I think that you can accept that anger, which is really accepting your fear.

This is my conclusion for now, but (knowing myself) just wait a year and I might be walking a completely different path. :D

PS:
Thanks for the input, Delak!
Sorry if my posts get too lengthy, everyone! I'll try to keep my replies more concise in the future.
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Re: Control Vs. Being

Post by Delak »

na
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Re: Control Vs. Being

Post by Wanderer »

Delak wrote: I agree, for an extrovert, they would need to slow down and consider other perspectives and not have to dictate others. An introvert, might have to go upward to hit the balance point that comes from being fearless.

Whats interesting that comes to mind; it seems some fears have a clear cut line in the sand that if you cross it you have accepted it. Like if you backed into your parents car and they are not sure who did it. Telling them the truth would be a accept it or not, case. But other situations are more vague and not well defined in our heads. Like around groups of people not feeling yourself, there is a less defined action that can be taken, and not taking any action is also a problem, being reserved and quiet. Finding understanding the issues are more intro-connected and obscure.
I agree with your methods, they seem to be pretty sound to me. As for the issues presented in this paragraph, I can say that I have had experiences similar to what you describe. What I would say was beneficial to me in the situations where there was not really a clear cut line so to speak as to where the fear (or any other reaction, for that matter) began and ended (I have had difficulty overcoming the fear, in these types of situations) was to not focus so much on understanding where the fear begins and ends , but to just accept everything passing through my reality, just as they are. This process, however, (in my experience) can be extremely difficult in cases where the person in question is very attached to their perceived problems, so I think that idea that changing the activity can help redirect the focus and "detach" from the perceived problems somewhat can be an extremely positive experience for most people with this type of psychological make-up.

As far as actually taking an action when I am a bit less fearful and more unbiased as an individual, I just try to look for the best possible choice in such a situation, and try to get as much big picture benefit as I can.

On another note, a dream I once had included a situation where there was really no logical solution to the situation. There was some kind of disaster or extremely fearful situation in which several people were panicking and running around, trying to escape from some terrible entity. I responded with a puzzled question to myself, asking why they were frantically darting about, and being so caught up in the heat of the disaster, and I noticed how futile their attempts were. These people were darting from one exit from where we all were contained, exclaiming in panic as they reached each exit that "the terrible being is there waiting" (or this was the impression that I got), and continued darting from exit to exit and becoming more and more frightened. I basically watched, and thought, "might as well go to the exit where they had just darted from, maybe I will be able to outwit this terrible monster by going to an exit where it was just at, since he appears to be moving from exit to exit in this way". So, I employed the plan, went to a door, opened it, and heard a cry of the terrible monster, and waited for its strike. No strike came, and I realized that this cry was that of a lonely abandoned animal.

This encounter means to me (my waking intellect) that I do not need to rush so futilely from perceived problem to perceived problem, and taught me the uselessness of trying to endlessly fix said problems, or try to escape from them. This reinforced the idea that Tom presents in MBT that meditation is simply a means of removing the intellectual processes of doubting and trying to constantly change the course of action prematurely (as can be its nature).

I used to be inclined to think (despite the fact that Tom said otherwise) that I could somehow find a better way to meditate or a mantra that would get me to some kind of perfectly silent, samurai zen mind that (and I'm stealing the metaphor of John Kabat Zinn, a mindfulness meditation teacher who has done talks at universities and the bay area google campus (shown here) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc) discerns all problems and cuts through the gordian knot of things (all of this is an expectation of course).

So, basically, this led me again back to the idea that all of these problems were caused by my fear of these problems not being solved. Isn't the smell of irony just wonderful in the morning?
Delak wrote:The whole process is kinda like hands and feet are tied and you have to wiggle and squirm about in various methods to move and make any progress.
Exactly what has been my case. As (I think) Tom has said, I think that at the beginning (of personal development), our progress is slow and largely reflects this process of struggling with different methods, but as we practice, and operate a bit more at the being level, I have a hunch that the progress continues at a much faster rate (as we get more and more of the ego out of the picture).
*Although, this is nothing original as Tom has pointed this out on several occasions, if memory serves*
Delak wrote:The changing the activity, was a more general situation when my mind has me hostage and is going Rambo, or H.A.M. So If I can't get it under control, I can trick it like "Hey there is some stuff in this room you can destroy" but what it doesn't know is the room is a converted garage I hardly ever go in, with Aunt Elena's thrift store bargins.
I can completely relate. This goes back to when zen masters ask those who are new to zen questions like "what is the sound of one hand clapping". The student may (in many cases) be "surprised" out of their constant intellectual logic.

Even in the explorer tapes on TMI (the Monroe Institute), [url = "http://www.monroeinstitute.org/resource ... rer-series"]tapes 30 and 31 (32 is great as well)[/url] provide great insight (for me) into the development of the individual and how it needs constant encouragement and needs to believe that it is doing things (in most cases) in order to start to move out of the intense identification that many individuals seem to have with their struggles and logical processes that really can serve to hinder them in the end if the logical processes are not focused and specific, not just caught up in mental noise.

For example in Robert Peterson's book Robert Peterson - Out of Body Experiences, he notes that an important part of learning how to get out of body is to quiesce the mind. He notes that when people hear someone knock at the door, or the phone ring, or see a flash of lightning and stop and try to hear the thunder, then they have momentarily quiesced the mind. To me, this sounds exactly like point consciousness (and pretty much any other method of meditation), and ties back in with what Tom has said about people getting into a meditation state when they read a book, and the point of meditation is to be able to return to that state without the book (or any other aids).

Just my ideas for the time being, and I apologize for the length of this post.
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