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CZ: Tom when you first started out exploring reality frames how did you know that you had to get rid of fear in order to explore more of those other universes?
Tom: Well, that’s a pretty good question. You know when I first started with Bob Monroe it was more just being an explorer. “What’s going to happen here? Is this real?” Because Bob was kind of “Mr. Out of Body.” He wrote the book, Journeys out of the Body, some five years or so before I met him and my first big question was, “Is there anything to this? Is it real or is it just something that’s kind of imaginary; something we make up? Or (is it) us really - an imaginary trip?” So those were my burning questions. It really wasn’t so much about ethics and getting rid of ego, or getting rid of fear, or any of that. It was just the longer that I spent in this process the more I would see bigger pictures. And the more I would see a bigger picture of how things were all connected with each other, the more it became obvious to me that fear, ego was kind of the main block; was the thing that inhibited people from the experience.
We’d have people into the lab. We had a lab and we had lots of people coming through there, and we were playing our binaural beats, and getting their responses, and seeing how it worked with them. And basically you could see that the people who had issues, (who had a lot of the ego and fear issues) they’re the people who were struggling, and didn’t seem to be able to make connections, and couldn't get through their fear barriers. So it was obvious that fear and beliefs were a big part the issue. And then all you have to do is think about it a little and say, “Well you know if you have beliefs and the beliefs say that none of the stuff can exist; that's the way it's going to happen you. None of that stuff will exist.” Because anything that you experience that conflict with that fear will just be sloughed off. “Ah, that’s just my imagination.” You won't pay any attention to it; you won't work with it; you won't see deeper into it. You'll just automatically blow it off because you already know the answer. And that's pretty obvious logic that if you're biased going into a problem, which is what the fear does (the fear and the belief both bias you,) you go into a situation biased; you're not going to come out with the real story. You're going to come out with your own twisted version of that story.
And since what we were doing was blazing new ground in places that nobody had gone before, sounds like the old Star Trek opener, but there weren't any books or a lot of people to talk to that could give you advice about what you were doing and how to go about it. So it seemed obvious to me, just from the logical viewpoint, that you need to strip away all of those things that would color your glasses; that would give you false interpretations because if your own fears or your own beliefs. So it was obvious those things had to be done away with. You had to meet this absolutely open with no preconceived notions and no expectations; otherwise it wouldn't work well. We were practicing this many times a week and if you had issues, or if you had things on your mind, or if you weren't feeling like you could just relax and let go - then things didn’t work very well. So just by being in that role it became very quickly obvious to me that you needed to be open and you needed not to be encumbered by any beliefs or any fears - that those got in the way. Well you know I'm a scientist I wanted to pursue this investigation so that was like step one; get rid of the fear get rid of the beliefs and just enter open and see what happens.
CZ: And some of those fears are very easy to get rid of while some of them are hard to indeed.
Tom: Yes that is true. We don't know most of the fears and beliefs that we have. We don't realize they’re fears and beliefs because they have been with us for so long that we just accept them as a part of the way things are. We think everybody probably has the fears and beliefs that we have. And some of them you just get from your culture. You get cultural beliefs about the nature of reality. It's just what most of the people in your culture think about it; and you just picked that up; and you tend to think that way too. It's not like somebody sat down and said, “Here's what you need to believe. This is the right answer.” A lot of these beliefs just ooze in without you ever knowing that they’re there. And I've had any number of people, particularly young males, will sometime say, “Well I don't have any fear, and I don't have any beliefs. But, I'm still having trouble seeing the bigger picture.” And if I can convince them to try to look at anything in their life that is negative, or causes anxiety, or doesn't feel good, (or whatever,) something that worries you, or is a problem - and try to find the fear. And always a month or two will go by and if I get back in touch with them I’ll hear something like, “I didn't realize how many fears and how many beliefs that I have.” And then a couple months after that it's almost depression in that, “Everything I do is pushed by ego,” whose origin is in fear, “Everything I do is pushed by ego and belief.” So fear and belief turnout the be the major motivators, the major things that kind of nudge them to make the choices; say the things; and do the things; and feel the way they do. And that's a big revelation because from their intellectual view it’s, “I'm fine. I don't really have any fear. And I don't have any ego. I don’t have any beliefs. I'm just open.”
That’s the way their intellect tells the story because the intellect’s trying to make you feel good; trying to make you cover those fears so the fears don't exist. So that's where the intellect gets in the way. But most people make most of their decisions and most of their choices based on their fears and on their beliefs. And that's just life; that's just the way it is, and often that's what's your culture expects of you. If you don't do that, if you don't have certain beliefs that are accepted in your culture, then there's something wrong with you; there's a problem; you're an outsider; you don't belong; you no longer conform to the social beliefs.
So it's not an easy thing to do. The hardest part is finding them, finding that fear and those beliefs, and that's step number one - and that's probably the hardest thing. Once you find them if you really want to get over them it's just a matter of time - and it’s not quick. You usually don't find the fear and it’s gone the next day. You may have to work at it for months or maybe even years if it's a tough one. But you can get rid of any of them if you really want to. It's just a matter of catching yourself whenever you're having that reaction that's ego based (which is the same as fear based or belief based,) you catch it and you say, “Oh, that's not the way I want to go here.” And you change it. And eventually you don't catch yourself as often and eventually don't catch yourself at all because you stop doing that.
But it takes time, and the way you start is just to observe your own consciousness, observe your own choices you make, the way you feel, the way you interact. When you saw that twenty dollar bill what did you think about? Did you look around to see who's watching; whether or not it would be a good idea to put in your pocket? Could you get away with that? You know if that was your first (response) then that tells you that there's a problem there. So you have to trace that back. And that'll go back to a fear of some sort. A fear of not having enough; a fear of other people taking what you've got; or that you're found wanting of your ability to gather resources (or something.) So it’s not an easy thing to do - to beat your fears. But if you really want to do it - just start. And you’ll start with one and you’ll find one thing and you'll kind of feel like, “Well that's the only one. I found one.” And then you work on that and then pretty soon a couple more will pop up. Don't get overwhelmed. Realize that we tend to be very fearful people and it'll take some time to work through all that stuff. But you will start feeling better; your life will start getting better; your interactions with other people start getting better. And everything from your personal life, to your career, things will start working better as you get rid of those fears; because they are the problems that create issues and problems for us. So there's an immediate reward too so that people do get a sense of it's worth doing.
CZ : So a good plan then would to be to start with a small fears and then begin with the harder ones later on?
Tom: Sure that's a good thing. Just start, just feel - be aware of your feelings. And as soon as you get a feeling that is not joy; and it's not happiness; and it's not wonderful; it’s, “Uhh, That’s not so good. I didn’t like that.” or, “I wish that wouldn’t have happen that way,” (you’re having these kinds of things) - start to inspect them. Try to trace them back, and if you do that for probably even just a few days, you'll probably unearth at least one fear somewhere. And then you just need to keep working on that until you get rid of it.
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