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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:37 pm 
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Introduction:

My Big TOE by Tom Campbell introduces a scientific model of reality.

In these forums, the model of MBT is discussed and further explained. The general concept of modeling is also discussed.

This thread includes several descriptions of reality and includes discussion of how to understand a model versus the reality which it models.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:40 pm 
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The following is a post by Tom Campbell with the original context removed:

In a nutshell:
It is a matter of language, metaphors, models, how we communicate, and on what level we communicate. It is also a matter of not confusing reality with the model of reality. Not confusing metaphorical description with what is being described.

Background:
We in PMR have a propensity, indeed a need, to define everything into its own separate pigeon hole. We do that because the PMR rule-set creates a reality of separate objects and separate beings so that we may learn through interaction. That is all we know so we project it onto everything. Consequently, the schemes we think up (guides, soul, oversoul, higher self, planes, chakras etc.) with everything separated, labeled, and given its proper unique function constitute our models of reality. The value and usefulness of these models is that they allow us to communicate ideas to others who cannot think in any other terms (almost everybody). To communicate, one must speak to others in terms of concepts that can be comprehended. Learning must take place in sequential stages of personal discovery. Talking truth that flies "over the head" of others without careful explanation, just confuses rather than educates -- as you have been confused by conflicting accounts of "guides" and "soul" existing and not existing. Teachers exhibiting their command of the truth without sufficient care often confuse (retard the growth of) many, many more people than they help (advance the growth of). Such groups become esoteric with only the "insiders", the "enlightened" ones, really knowing and understanding deeply. The "secret" or lofty knowledge of such groups is held in high esteem, as are its leaders. Of course, the burden of communicating is not only upon the teachers. Casual students often take words out of context, misinterpret meaning, and are drawn toward the mystique of superior knowledge like moths to light. Some cultures encourage this largely dysfunctional educational paradigm more than others.

What consciousness is and the responsibility for explaining it to others:
Consciousness is one integrated whole thing. It is awash in a flurry of integrated activity that would put all the great cities on this planet, taken as one together, to shame - A swirl of information transfer that ebbs and flows, comes together and disappears, attends needs, provides data, and lowers its entropy by employing a few billion parts of itself in virtual reality trainers, and many more billion parts to produce, service and optimize the VRs and the opportunities of those engaged in the VR trainers. That is what it does - we are part of a bigger animal called consciousness. We are all of The One - we are it, it is us. We break it into functional pieces so we can comprehend it more easily and can talk about in a meaningful way to others. If we didn't do this, we would appear to the majority of the world's people like vaguely coherent, self-appointed cult leaders - enlightened masters living in our own opaque world constructed of our own undecipherable truth - teaching few, affecting little outside of our tiny circle of followers (tiny compared to the rest of humanity). We, who would try to make a more significant difference, must understand that everybody must interpret their own personal reality from the experience base, understanding, beliefs, and fears that they happen to have. To tell them, "here is the truth, go sink or swim with it", is not all that helpful. Discovering knowledge and truth is terrific - discovering knowledge and truth and sharing it with others is better. Enlightenment is useless to all but itself, if its truth is invisible to those who need it - if its message confuses more than it helps.

Leveling up - a growing pain:
As people's level of understanding grows, a problem begins to occur when the models they have unfortunately come to believe in (are trapped by), i.e., the models they learned in elementary school (that were communicated to them using metaphors and conceptualizations they could understand), no longer accurately or consistently describe the reality they experience (recall the basketball with bbs flying around it was science's initial model of the atom). This is a problem generated by individuals believing that their model of reality is reality -- a common error among scientists and non-scientists alike.

What your uncle never told you about reality:
You have heard me say in these forums many times that guides are merely metaphors expressing a form of help the larger consciousness system provides to encourage and aid our evolution. Also that "Higher selves" or "Over-souls" are also merely metaphors for that non-PMR functionality of our consciousness - that we and our higher selves are one fully integrated thing, not separate things with separate functions. Add souls, IUOCs, Indra's Net, RWW, TBC, AUM, VRRE, OS, and everything else that we have functionally defined as a separate component of the larger reality to that list of "merely metaphors". None of it exists -- not as separate objects/beings/stuff/units. It's all virtual. Consciousness itself is the only fundamental reality - everything consciousness creates out of that vast informational field is virtual. Consciousness and free will are logically necessary for each other's existence -- evolution requires free will, consequently, that attribute is doled out wherever the engine of evolution requires it. Our VR is one such engine and we are (as the free will enabled stars of this game, of course) -- what makes that particular engine work. Like the Freon in a refrigerator or the exploding gasoline and pistons in an internal combustion engine, we go round and round, decreasing entropy on each pass as we go. Chug, chug, chug. Do your part.

Pick a model, any model.but pick one that is productive for you:
A model is not judged on accuracy alone, but also on what value it can deliver. The above model, though less encumbered by habits of PMR thinking, will deliver little value to most of the world's population. If you are grown up enough to absorb and feel the beauty of this model and celebrate the joy and peace that comes with being a valuable part of The One Whole Thing, and if you are evolved enough to be thrilled with the idea that by your hard work and diligence, you have the blessed opportunity to become a contributor to the survival, success, and continued existence of existence itself, then you have come home to snuggle up contentedly in the lap of The One Consciousness-Evolution Fractal Digital Love Being/Machine. If, on the other hand, your giant ego roars in self-focused infuriation at the thought that you suffer through life after life, being shoved this way and that, whipped by fear and pain like a dog, in order to serve as the Freon in the evolution chamber of some monster consciousness information system, then you are probably sorry that you asked this question and finally got a straight answer.

In either case, don't believe that this model is the real reality either. It is just a model. Don't confuse the model of reality with reality. Some models may be more accurate than others but their productivity to your growth is much more important than accuracy. Besides, accuracy is very difficult and problematical to assess. Learn to reduce your ego and fear to the point that you can live gracefully with uncertainty.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:09 pm 
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This post is in my humble opinion one of the finest posts on a forum filled with the best of people seeking their own understanding. There are many more folks who can see this model of reality around than we know. How much of Tom's post is true for you is a good gauge of your own current level of growth and ability to understand. Just as he said it is a model and the experience of it will be a personal thing for each of us. He brought something into eloquent words that defies our attempts to define in the symbols of language that we exchange. One post sums up all of My Big Toe and more. I think we can all use this as a guide to test our own big picture. I am proud of Tom for being who he is and Ted for working so hard to help us find our way.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:08 pm 
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If we (know) that this is a VR model,does that mean i can no longer benifit from the experience of this life ?. in lowering my entropy. Yours Clive.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:33 pm 
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greenman wrote:If we (know) that this is a VR model,does that mean i can no longer benifit from the experience of this life ?. in lowering my entropy. Yours Clive.
Hi Clive and welcome to Tom's discussion group. Have you read the red post here in this thread? Tom's book? I don't think knowing this is a VR makes life any less useful, if anything it makes it more useful and less scary. I worry that it, knowing and believing because it is a belief too, will allow people to get into trouble and just hit reset (suicide) so they can build up a new character. Will knowing this is a VR allow more people to do it, because it is already happening a lot without this knowing. It is in the benefit of other's too that we live this life, men in this society at this time have it harder, it seems from what I gather from Tom here and life, as they are expected to support a family. An experience happened in my reality just last weekend when a family patriarch who was a father figure to many nieces and nephews as well as his own children, a church going man, ended an affair by almost killing the lady because she didn't return his level of affection, and then killing himself. He would have gone to jail for attempted murder changing his families lifestyle completely in reality and in societies eyes, but he killed himself (he flipped a coin) and the family received insurance money. Did his entropy get lowered? Deep question, so here is a deep answer with more questions from a neophyte. Welcome again.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:06 pm 
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Greenman: If we (know) that this is a VR model,does that mean i can no longer benifit from the experience of this life ?. in lowering my entropy

Tom: Absolutely not. Such knowledge, if intellectual only, will probably have little effect on what benefit you actually get from your experience. If understood at a deeper level it should make the entropy lowering process more efficient. You should be better at something if you understand it and know what you are doing.

Bette, only a gross misunderstanding of the nature of reality would encourage suicide.

Suicides, such as the one you describe, are not just a re-boot that gets you back to where you started last time -- it is more like a hard crash that hangs your computer and forces a reboot when you haven't saved for a long time. They are destructive in the big picture as well as in the little picture -- it represents a very high entropy termination that makes future success more difficult -- A barrier created that now has to be surmounted -- a hole that you dig for yourself that you now have to climb out of. One has to restart from where one left off, not from where one began. If you end an experience packet with high entropy, you create a difficult transition and you start the next one with that higher entropy as a burden -- you have to keep whatever you earn -- evolution or de-evolution. Having failed once makes it easier to fail again.

Unfortunately, many people do have a gross misunderstanding of the nature of reality -- and thus your concern is a real one.

Tom C


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:31 pm 
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hmm, makes you think. Thank you Tom, as always.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:34 am 
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Please, Tom, could you tell what happens to people with a mental illness, if they committed suicide? Is it destructive for their future too?

Thank you.
Lena

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Last edited by Lena on Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:35 am 
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I don't know the answer Lena, but it seems that a mental illness reduces the decision space and therefore the responsibility for our actions.
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Bette

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:42 pm 
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THANKS for the replies Bette,and Tom,on this subject of suicide does the man not when waking up in NPMR relies his mistake and thus start to lower his entropy.We here of people having life reviews when they die, does this not give them the chance not to make the same mistake again ? before the next PMR journey. Clive.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:12 pm 
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twcjr wrote:One has to restart from where one left off, not from where one began.
For me, today this is the big idea out of this post. The other day it was the computer hanging-up idea.

You are welcome Clive.
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Bette

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Both of Bette's comments are right on the money. A smaller decision space implies a smaller responsibility, yet evolution is a cumulative process -- you do not get to delete what you might wish to. What you earn is yours to keep. If you are handicapped, either mentally or physically (both are actually physical most of the time), significance is measured in the same terms as it is for everyone else -- what is important is what you do in the big picture with what you've got to work with in the little picture. It is a matter of optimizing opportunity whether the final result in PMR is grand or humble is not the issue. It is the quality of the journey that is important, not where you end up in PMR as a result of that journey. A journey terminating in suicide, as originally described by Bette, is obviously not an optimized high quality one -- that is why there is a hole to climb out of even after the trauma has been dealt with.

Greenman, yes, there is such a review, but that learning is at the intellectual level -- you may see the error of your ways, but whether or not that intellectual knowing will be translated into growth at the being level can only be tested in the next experience packet. If intellectual awareness could easily influence the being level, we could all be given a lecture and our evolution would be complete. It takes thousands of experience packets because evolutionary change must take place at the being level. In this case, at the being level, the person has dug themselves into a hole they must climb out of because of their unproductive choices (from a big picture perspective). Failing to sufficiently capitalize on, or optimize, the opportunities that were well within their grasp, they instead followed their fear and ego to an unenlightened dysfunctional end (again, from a big picture perspective). On the up side, they intellectually see where they made poor choices. The former carries much more weight than the latter where the evolutional rubber meets the road.

Lena,
Those handicapped by dysfunctional brain chemistry (a physical problem) still must recover from the trauma they create for themselves, but if the problem is more physical (irrelevant in the big picture) than it is a failure of the being to make good choices from the available opportunities (very important in the big picture - the fundamental mechanism for growth - i.e., reducing entropy and evolving the consciousness), then the depth of the hole dug is relatively shallow. With a physical handicap, one often has a reduced decision space which, by definition, reduces the "available opportunities".

Tom C


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:22 pm 
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I am always remarkably impressed by the quality of the posts here. As a PMR resident, I can tell you first hand how difficult it is to have a clear model of reality within all the belief systems and a limited knowledge bases, frame worked into the very model of the PMR body. Reality is the census of which we all embark on a journey with for the fundamental purpose of self-realization, love and as Tom always elegantly says, improve the quality of one's consciousness.

In some ways, what you are asking people to see, is perfection within imperfection inside themselves. That despite a system of incorrect beliefs, there is always one fundamental constant within that discorded thought array. And that is you are one with a consciousness, that is highly-evolved, extremely intelligent, multi-dimensional and a part of you as your PMR virtual self, as much as it is part of you as your NPMR self, as much as you are a part of it.

In raising our awareness to fundamental truths, it would seem logical that we start seeing the very fundamental building blocks of our relationship with reality, and the truth of the experience through an increased awareness program sponsored from within this "self" that we are all a part of. Truth of our existence, truth of our origin, truth of our abilities with the AUO, as part of it's AUM.

As an IUOC, and a part of this reality system, I can honestly say that perfection is within imperfection and when we observe a moment of reality, in the frame-by-frame, nanosecond-by-nanosecond view, the perfection is visible within the imperfections.

It's like those benign walks in the park, when you just open up and feel the simple connectiveness with everything else around you, and see how measured, balanced, perfectly rendered it all really is. Just enjoy the park, enjoy the connectiveness, and does this not inherently lower entropy and build self-realization?

Fundamentally, this reality already is what it is supposed to be by the inherit design, with all the pieces of the puzzle already arranged in dimensional precision. The active ingredient observing the PMR system is the very consciousness of which we all currently are. Each thought, each idea, each understanding all woven into every aspect of the experience.

Yet in the end, we are just an interface, a mask worn by consciousness to fulfill the big picture. It think it's wise to focus on perfection within imperfection to see the mask, and the consciousness and the big picture all as one. Sink or swim, all of us invested in a human experience will surface from that experience either through death or the greater realizations of truth and reality as a whole.

On that note, I am going to listen to "Requiem For a Dream." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Ma4BvMUwU
And ponder the vast greatness of it all. Look at that perfection, that oneness and let it take me where ever such thoughts lead.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:43 pm 
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Thank you, Tom and Bette. I can only hope that his next choice is/will be more thoroughly made.

Lena

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:40 am 
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Tom chose to post this material which is pertinent to the discussion of modeling and models of reality. I post it here despite the fact that I wrote the main body for your decision as to whether it should be here as part of the best posts on this subject or not. Please let us know below how you feel as to whether this should be part of this thread or not.

Just before a hacker crashed our Discussion Group a week or so ago, I had an exchange of email with Ted. In it I cautioned Ted not to let habitual forms of PMR thinking turn assumptions into beliefs. That is a good caution for all of us. I thought his reply was excellent and would be of value on the board - so I asked and received Ted's permission to reprint it here.

Tom: Because it is our habit while in PMR (a world of separate things), we tend to want to know who we are talking to - i.e., demand that a personal identity be attached to any communication. However, from the more fundamental perspective of us as a digital consciousness interacting with data streams from wherever (within the larger consciousness system the distinction between self and other is more by definition since the concept of "separate" or "individuated" is more of a PMR concept that has little traction in consciousness where all is one ) it doesn't really matter. What matters is the quality or value of the communication to us - what we can gain from it - how we can use it to further our understanding and reduce our entropy. Communications to us may pose in any form or take any context to get their message across. So in many ways it is more practical to not worry too much over determining identities and just concentrate on what there is to learn, to search for what is valuable to Us (not to our egos or lower case us) . Communications that are productive are good/valuable - whatever their origin from within The One of which we are a part.
The MBT model of reality is a model constructed by a PMR resident for PMR residents -- so that PMR residents can understand the concepts. One must be cautious not to automatically equate the model of reality with reality lest one create assumptions that turn into beliefs.

Ted: I don't attach much certainty in the specifics of the MBT model you created and I have either paraphrased or added a little to, but it makes a great deal of sense and fits a lot of what appear to be logical necessities. It is only on your assumption that it is even binary. In whatever form it really exists, other than in your postulated reality cells, data must be mobile, movable from location to location within the consciousness or computational space. If data is mobile but unconstrained, data streams can intersect and destroy each other. The continued existence of a given being becomes very iffy and the bootstrapping ultimately fails. So I cannot see that there can be other than something that has since pre history been called Indra's Net, giving us both communication pathways, the RWW, and protected beings to make use of them. But to call it a net and place any meaning to this is just historical romance, not fact, as received and reported by visitors. We as PMR residents have been contacting it, and other aspects of The One, since pre historical times with considerable consistency in our perceptions.

While our true being exists in Indra's Net, our virtual beings exist there also as sub sets of the whole of our true being, assuming that we are as the whole advanced enough to communicate and maintain a consciousness other than as virtual reality based. So our NPMR VR being is a sub set of the whole. Our PMR being is a sub set of the whole (possibly) and of our NPMR VR being(possibly). And in ways that we cannot or do not know, our whole being in Indra's Net is a part of and participates in the consciousness of The One. But nothing says that we are static and the data stream moves. It could be the other way around, but less likely to my thinking. We could be part of a circulating data stream of conscious individuated beings. There is reason to think of the possibility that we may well exist as a fractal pattern that The One can in some way comprehend and take pleasure in. But The One is also a concept, not a fact, although a concept that fits the historically perceived properties of what we perceive ourselves to be part of better than any historical concept of God.

I suspect that as we develop as beings, we, as reported, quit participating in PMR VR's. I suspect that we eventually quit participating, other than as part of the high level guidance, in NPMR as well. To say that there is such a thing as TBC, the VRRE and the EBC are just speculative modeling components as it makes sense for them to be there as functions. They may just be part of one jumbled together computational complex. The NPRMn's and PMRn's are speculative other than your observations and resulting conclusions and possibly Robert Monroe's observations plus whoever else has traveled and observed this extensively. The actual organization may be different and we are certainly talking virtual computation spaces rather than anything absolute. And there is no neat stacking like you illustrate in your slides for illustration purposes. The mapping of the set of participants in Indra's Net onto the set of VR(n) is likely to be widely scattered, not grouped. Likewise are our Intent and any sense of being associated with it are to some extent speculative modeling components other than as you may know that measurement of entropy does occur and has practical uses within The One. It is simply logical that this can be considered as a specific component of our being for conceptual modeling purposes and that there co exists with it a concept of who we are as a being as I am suggesting. I am suggesting this based on logic only. But actual organizational arrangements of data, who can know, and are they consistent being to being?

I don't see myself as believing that any of the above is true and actual as described. Rather I see it as something that I 'know' as making a consistent and believable model that can produce consistent results and explain PMR reality as I experience it and others have described. All of my life I have studied, wishing to know what kind of reality can contain all of the para-normal things that can occur as per mystics, shaman, modern physicists, etc., (and in my life) but is clearly not explained by the normal models of reality of religion and science. I was given, claimed now to be from within my own base and NPMR beings, the things I stated as principles of Ultimate Reality, that I also find as consistent within the MBT model and think/feel that I know as opposed to believe. There are other characteristics and purposes that appear to be true or observable as reported by you, and also fit in ways that I see to complete the MBT model. That includes the interactions of participants to be the purpose of the VR's. Also the conservation of computational resources. Reality on the cheap. But I don't believe any of this, nor would I believe you just based on your partial exploration without my own experience. As we have both said, reality is too big and we are too limited for any one being to know it all.

But having done numerical modeling of 'physical systems', I very much know that the model relates loosely at best to the source. I had to keep adding components and details to the model trying to approach the original data with the model results. The reality always has more complications than you can put into the model. And the original data had inherent limitations. Simply too few sample points and I had no control of the already completed experimental procedure and what they failed to control. And you never knew how good the additions of further phenomena was modeled by the sub model you used for that.

But as a model I can perceive in my mind, almost like a something I can rotate, look at from different angles and different levels and look at as something I am creating, discovering new levels to, I can see this model as linking to and explaining so many things in the PMR virtual reality and explain so much I hear about NPMR and the historical findings of pre historic Vedic or Hindu metaphysicians and mystics onward, that I consider myself to know rather than believe. Actually what I feel myself to live in as opposed to the conventional/scientific description of PMR. I feel more at home in it conceptually than I ever did in our 'physical' reality with no way to explain so many things. And I live based on the model and what I receive from my guides, whoever they are. And they have never given me bad information yet. But I know I don't live in something exactly like the model, just more like it than the PMR models built in PMR by society and scientists. At least this is so until someone can come up with something better. And it appears to be the best that metaphysics, religion, science or mystics can come up with, either historically, or so far in modern PMR. Unless they have a better model that is current in NPMR thinking, and that only you would have access to and are not telling about, I don't see any sign of a better model of Ultimate Reality than MBT with perhaps a few embellishments of my own. Even recognizing the simulation/approximation of so many of the concepts that are there to fill a logical slot until when and if more knowledge comes along.

And your concept of modeling PMR time/VR out of probabilities into the future, etc. is very true to what is necessary to model a physical simulation based on what I have done myself, so whether precisely true or not, I find it very believable as a model. It may not be precisely right and I have always wondered how far into the future past t0 the projection goes and is saved as opposed to just recalculating as required. The precision and circumstances are such that any deviations are not likely to be perceived so why do all that storage. But I wouldn't question you on that, not knowing which things are specifically taken from a knowledge base native to NPMR that is part of the model that is current in NPMR. But I wouldn't be surprised if you told me that there is no model current in NPMR for all of our Ultimate Reality. There is no broadcast method so everyone basically fumbles along on their own or in small groups or with a mentor as a source for information about the greater reality. Michael Newton describes classes or seminars in getting along and personal interactions, but nothing on metaphysics or physics and descriptions of the creation of beings, for instance, is almost at the level of 'the stork brings them'. And I'm aware of how much limitation there is on the accuracy of the results as these reports pass through so much individual imagery and limited understanding. I would not be surprised if you told me that there is no accepted model of NPMR and the Consciousness System of The One within NPMR. Many probably feel that NPMR is all there is, PMR is an occasional training session they are pushed into, and don't even realize that they are having a virtual reality experience there in NPMR.

So I don't really 'believe' in your model so much as I know what a model really is and find this to be a good model in general. And the proof of this pudding is in the experiencing of it. What can it tell me about a better way to live and understand my PMR life, or predict or explain for me. My Short Model statement, added to MBT, makes it fit my thinking better, but is not in any way precise or 'true', just what came to me to say, presumably from my usual sources. But my statement of Principles fits very well, in my thinking, into the rest of MBT as you created it. It is a way that I think in naturally and logically fits the reality as you described MBT. Godel's Law is a logical thing that applies, regardless of what your formal or informal system is. There are no absolutes, either meanings nor moralities nor fixed ultimate goals for the consciousness system as a whole. Absolute Free Will must logically be as you described in a free will based evolutionary system and Intent must be the arbiter of good versus evil, logically but in no specific way that we can know. There are no moral absolutes, only systems created like your son's. I'll compare the file you sent today, but I think you already sent this to me once. I'm sure I'll be favorably impressed again at his thinking, but am not likely to reject the concept that morality is at base non-absolute and relative.

And I have recognized the possibilities of uncertainty in RWW communication regarding sources. I have not know the source(s) of the information I have received over the years but have evaluated it entirely on the basis of apparent quality, as best I could judge it. Mostly with how well it fit other sources and what I was able to do with it, explain, predict, understand. And often how I felt about it: is it good or evil in its basic nature. In just a short time as available, I have observed more clarity and understandable communication as I am supposedly speaking with my NPMR alter ego. Logically this should be so as it requires no RWW transport. Perhaps I spoke too soon and this will not last, but I suspect that it will be the best that I can do. Much less confusion and uncertainty of understanding seems to result so far.


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